Mafia Boss & London Gangster Reveal Their Most Violent Crimes | Crime Stories

In this episode of Crime Stories, former mob boss Michael Franzese (@michaelfranzese) and old-school gangster Bobby Cummines meet for the first time to compare violent crime in New York and London. They discuss what it’s like to take the Mafia blood oath, work alongside the notorious Kray twins and reveal the brutal regrets that still haunt them. Both agree they are lucky to have escaped the dangerous world of organised crime with their lives.

Michael is now on tour across the UK, please follow this link for more information:
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/cc/the-re-made-man-tour-the-michael-franzese-story-2734469

00:00 – 01:09 – Introduction
01:09 – 04:47 – Getting Into Crime
04:47 – 08:22 – Becoming A Gangster
08:22 – 11:47 – Violent Crimes
11:47 – 15:35 – Mafia Vs Underworld
15:35 – 17:15 – Rule Of The Life
17:15 – 19:06 – Regrets
19:06 – 22:18 – Police, The FBI & Prison
22:18 – 25:15 – Going Straight

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I don’t want a piece of the cake I want all the cake that’s mine if they come with Mya and they started like musing on me I’m going to shoot them it’s a violent life at times that’s the street you violate another man’s wife daughter sister mother you’re dead yeah you deal

With drugs you’re dead yeah you hit another maid man you’re dead Bobby Michael Francis meet please to meet and it’s it’s a privilege for me because I’ve heard so many great things about you Bobby really I’m not being fny that go two ways don’t he it’s two way traffic because I’ve

Heard great things about you don’t wish to embarrass you but as soon as people see you they go Mafia you know soon as people see me they go the underworld they call me a gangster I go I’m not a gangster you know never ever been a gangster gangsters these people they

Show offs they’re loud they I don’t do that I’m polite and a businessman whose business is crime you know well you’re you’re a racketeer and I I like to consider myself more of a racketeer than a gangster it just sounds Better what was it like when when you was a kid and you was born cuz your family your father was in mixed up in organized crime wasn’t it yeah so what was it like did you feel you at to go that way or was it my dad was kind of

Like the John Gotti of his day yeah very high profile always under investigation major Target of law enforcement back in my day when uh you were under investigation they wanted you to know about it and for a period of you know 10 12 years I’m growing up we’ve got agents

Around us all the time sitting outside our house 24 hours a day we get in the car they follow us I go to a ball game they follow us so I grew up hating the police I hated them I hated the government cuz I always looked at them

As harass my family right and then they indict him on some phony case for masterminding a nationwide string of bank robber he supposedly ordered the bank robberies he goes to trial gets convicted they give him 50 years I was 18 years old 19 I was devastated because

You figure 50 years he’s never coming out alive he was 50 when he went in So at the time Joe Columbo was very close to our family my dad was the under boss and he kind of takes me under his wing and I’m meeting a lot of my dad’s

Friends so I go see my dad in prison I said Dad bank robbery and Bobby I’ll never forget he looked me in the eye and he never lied to me and he said son I’m innocent yeah I was framed on this case he said and we have to find these

Witnesses get them to reverse their testimony or I’m going to die in here yeah so I don’t go to school anymore and I’m on the street now and I’m trying to help my father and that’s how I got involved really Michael that’s why why I feel for you cuz I know what you’re

Talking about we come a poor area and that was all straight people in my family I worked in a shipping office doing um inves and that sort of thing go through a park two coppers go in the park they’ve gone out of there they’ve come back with a Cutthroat razor threw

It on the ground and said we just see you throw it out your pocket right Nick me they go down police station they don’t my mom and dad they all working normal people they’re brokenhearted their son’s been arrested what’s that he don’t that come I said to my dad I said

They they fitted me up he went what I said they fra me I said I didn’t have it and he went well policeman don’t tell lies I mean he was that naive he went polic no he was right he was that naive if you take a bill guilty you get like

In in your country a dollar fine right if you pleader not guilty then you’re going to jail the young offenders jail right my mom’s crying I don’t know my family Michael so I go guilty on it go back to work the next day I’m sacked because you can’t work in a shipping

Office with invoices if you got a criminal record but there was no criminality in my mind at that time soon as they done that then I was hearing people doing arm robberies and all that and someone said you want to come on arm robbery all have some of that get the S

Off stuck out there nothing in it so I get a senior Detention Center label youngest person youngest person in Great Britain to be with a sa off at the age of 16 stick out so there brutal Place Michael by this time and now I’m the criminal mine’s coming in cultured I’ve

Met other criminals in there and they’re telling me how they do it so I’m learning off of them prison is the best university of crime is the best place to learn Stuff when I visited my father and he said to me son if you’re going to be on the street I want you on the street the right way yeah and this is in the visiting room 11worth he said if you ever had to kill anybody could you do it

I thought about it I was 19 years old I said under the right conditions yeah I could do it dad he said to me that’s the right answer yeah and he said go home somebody’s going to be in touch with you just do what you told two weeks later a

Captain picked me up took me to see the boss and I sat with him and he said Michael I got a message from your father you want to become a member of our life is that true I said yes he said here’s the deal this is how serious it was from

Now on 24 hours a day seven days a week you’re on call to serve this family that means if your mother is sick and she’s dying and you’re at her bedside we call you to service you leave your mother you come and serve us from now on we’re

Number one in your life before anything and everything when and if we feel you deserve this privilege this honor to become a member we’ll let you know I was 20 21 years old I’m in kind of like a recruit period where I had to do anything and everything I’m told to do

To prove myself worthy that lasted like two and a half years and again discipline Authority you know Drive the boss to a meeting sit in the car 3 hours God forbid you leave he comes out you go to the restroom with everything you’re not there you’re in a

Lot of trouble I know I did that once I made that mistake you had a meeting at 8:00 you weren’t there at 7:30 can never be late in that life you always had to I don’t care if there’s an earthquake you had to figure out how to be on time go there

The night before you know so 2 and 1/2 years later I’m called into a room with five gentleman and that night we all took an oath and became maid members of of Columbo family and so we walked into a room individually the boss was seated like the head of a horseshoe configuration

The under boss ciliary to his left and right all the captains C James were alongside of them we had about 15 in our family at that point I walked down the aisle stood in front of the boss I held out my hand right near cut my finger

Some blood dropped on the floor I cued my hands took a picture of a saint the cathol alter card lit it a flame it didn’t hurt it burned quickly it was just symbolic and he said tonight Michael Frances you are born again into a new life into cin orra violate what

You know about this life betray your brothers and you’ll die and burn in hell like the saint is burning in your hands do you accept yes I do and that’s the oath yeah I’ll tell you Michael it’s you know the ritual thing we never did mhm thing you there’s my heart there’s

My hand yeah that’s the only ritual we had there’s my heart there’s my hand in other words I’ll never betray you I never hurt your family you know you don’t hurt mine and there was them rules and you don’t cause trouble in someone else’s patch and ruin their business cuz

It CS gang Warfare right and people got shot and people got killed and cuz you had buses of they call it the under world but buses that was running firms you know and as kids we look up to them you know go we just if you like tving it

We with doing you know maybe cutting each other up or eting each other with hatchets or shooting each other but these guys they had the big car they was the real deal and you and someone said to me they went would you like to be like him you know and this guy’s name

Was Billy o at the time I said no I went you want I went no I want to be Better you violate another man wife daughter sister mother you’re dead yeah you deal with drugs you’re dead you hit another maid man you’re dead so we’re all told the same thing so we think at that time okay if we understand if we break the rules we can pay for it with

Our life so we justify it you know I mean I had a guy who was close to me like my brother I loved a guy unknowingly he’s H he’s married I baptized his son he’s having an affair with my sister blood man you can’t survive that you know unfortunately I I

I tell you what happened to me my first experience and I had many unfortunately there was a guy that uh it was a Jewish guy actually but very close to my dad very close to me right and when my father went away he was kind of like a second father to

Me he made a mistake I don’t want to get into all the details and and this was the first eye opening experience I had and he got it beat up I mean really bad devast I mean they they just they just mutilated his body so I went to the

Funeral and his sister came up to me and she said Michael look what these animals and it happened within the life look what these animals did to my brother it was a closed coffin she Ops the cofin and I’ll be honest with you Bobby almost got sick he was

Unrecognizable that’s when I got a bird’s eyye view of what the life was really all about and then I’m at a you know a rally and Joe Columbo who is my boss who I love get shot I’m 12 steps away from him he di he died eventually from the wounds

Like even in my own life like allegedly I’ve shot quite a few people and allegedly um shot them but as I said to people what I realized now Michael what I didn’t care then it was business it was just part of the business they come

In one day old frank cuz a lot of my people were Irish and Frank come in he said the the Chinese skers want to see you this thing about Triads now i’ done jail with the Triads and the m and the tongue and all that I knew that were

Nasty bits of work you know and I went this is heavy I said get the guns out I said if they want to meet you we’re going to meet these but we meet them off the manner in a nice quiet place cuz if it does go off I don’t want cameras

Going everywhere so to be honest with you yeah I had cuz it’s known I had a saw off under my coat and they’re expecting when they all say back Bobby CS they’re expecting a guy like a Dorman yeah I mean I’m 5 fo six more fat on a

Greasy chip Michael you know what I mean and uh but I got the gun and we get out and meet this guy and he’s come up it looked like s from out of a gangster he must have been watching American Gangster movie films he got he got the

Dark glasses down there you know he said we’re going to come on here we’re going to S hello he said then we give you oh you what and I said you’re not selling that crap on my house it destroys families and I’m I’m passionate about it

I won’t have it you know and uh he went he’s don’t M his coat he’s pulled out an AET and he went we Cho people up me is that right threw back the over Co pulled out the S I mean I’ll blow your you know

I went now you said get back to Gerard street or wherever you come from Soo I said but you come here I’m going to shoot you in the face I said you got where I’m coming From I’m sure there’s a difference way between the way we operate look I I always say this Mafia Cen orra we can talk about it now existed in America yeah survived and prospered for well over 100 years I mean you got to understand we had tremendous control number one we controlled all the

Unions if you control the unions in the United States you control the country yeah yeah and we got money so they got votes and money and we were very organized and you can you can say what you want but we were part of the history of the United States that’s why you see

So much about it going back we’re part of History it was different in in this country Mike in as much as people controlled areas they weren’t organized in the way you’re talking about organized crime right they weren’t organized that way they was organized amongst their own selves we work

Separately but we respected each other that’s the underworld or the so-called underworld worlds we knew each other we grew up as kids so we knew each other on the Block so we only work with those we knew you had really every people that was running their own sort of organiz

Crime but if they come on my and they started like musing on me I’m going to shoot them because that’s mine I don’t want a piece of the cake I want all the cake that’s mine right but I ain’t going to come and steal your cake yeah so

That’s how it worked then so we were organized crime in our little areas but we if if we’ all got together which was what the crazy trying to do but craze weren’t the right people to do it with the craze they said run London no they

Didn’t run London they was every in the east then they was no different to what we are today Charlie Richardson there he in this country was head of what they called the torture gang they run south London and in in fact i’ probably say that was the nearest thing we come to

Proper organized crime was the Richardsons they were forget the craze they weren’t on that level they they’d like to have been on that level but Charlie Richardson that F they was earning lots of money they was doing everything had mines in South Africa working with the government over there

It it weren’t an organization like you’re talking about no it was different with us we we controlled major cities New York was under our control Chicago New Orleans Florida Kansas City Cleveland we had tremendous control back then and again because we’re very organized and very disciplined and a lot

Of politicians worked with us you know so you know they were they were anyone we’d know any politicians we’d know that Michael no no no we don’t go down that route um you would know them not Trump yeah although I knew Trump I met Trump

Uh we had the same lawyer Roy Cohen was and I had met Donald and I be honest with we we we did business through the unions because he was a builder he was a developer and a contractor but that’s it doesn’t mean you were part of organized crime you’re just doing business right

That’s just the way it was that’s right so legitimate people had to deal with us in that regard it didn’t mean they were part of our life you know so let me ask you this you think uh you think you London guys could have learned from us

Or what what I think yes we could have the structure thing I think you could have learned from us as well into if you like you you were too close so when they come for you bang they come for the lot then when they come for us we were

Fragmented so once one got nicked we all whoa but you were too locked in you were too locked in but the the discipline and the rules yes 100% that we could have learned a lot from That and in our world we had BRS things we could do things we couldn’t do like you couldn’t shoot a main in front of his wife and kids you didn’t go and shoot women and children you couldn’t shoot the cops you couldn’t shoot the media cuz it messed up everyone’s

Business and that’s what people didn’t understand about me it was purely business I didn’t take any pleasure doing it Michael why I didn’t mind doing it if it made money you know there was things that were tolerated and there things that were noo areas and if you

Broke them rules then you picked up you got you picked up the price rate and if you stepped on someone’s toes you know if they was running a business and you you mled in on that then you’d either have to ever sit down talk or guns was

Going off there was respect in a criminal way there where we respect each other we know each other’s background there was no fibs you couldn’t boost it up you know it well you know what is there’s consequences you know we understood we had to we had to magic

Word we had to you know follow the rules or you had consequences now it didn’t always go you know you saw things that maybe it shouldn’t have been done that way but for the most because you’re still on the street yeah but for the most part you stayed in line because you

Knew there were consequences if you didn’t when we take an oath people think we took an oath to lie steal cheat kill murder that’s not what the oath was about yeah the means silence a lot of people don’t understand in our neighborhoods there was no crime yeah people respected us cuz we kept

Everything right there was drugs in the neighborhood we chase them out you know or Worse the worst thing you could ever do amongst aot was To Kill An innocent in other words some many who weren’t involved in crime you know and um and I did it was a robbery that went wrong they choked on a gaff on a gag on their

Own vment and died that with all the other supposedly shootings or whatever I suppos to have done and whacking people right allegedly I’ve done all these things but it got to a stage Michael where it got ridiculous I mean someone caught a cold when I was doing North Lon

And I was the one who give it and I got blamed for a lot of things I know what I’ve done and I Adit but of done look we have to admit we did some bad things in that life one of the horrors of my life

And I don’t know if it’s a same with you you make a mistake your best friend walks you into a room you don’t walk out again and obviously in my life I experienced that right A friend of mine he comes to me I’m a captain he was one

Of my guys again I knew him my whole life Michael I got involved in a small drug deal with the boss’s son he said I’m going to be in trouble I said you been in his life for 25 years don’t worry about it we’ll straighten it

All out so he was so afraid I I was leaving to go to Florida I was in New York I had my own plane at that time I says to him don’t worry about it when I get back I’ll straighten it all out not a problem he was so much in fear Bobby

The guy goes into a phone booth calls his wife says goodbye to her and blows his brains out in the phone booth because he said I’m not going to let anybody walk me into a room I’m not going out that way so what you said about fear was certainly a major part of

That life and I I can’t tell you I mean so of the guys I knew just got Killed normally the way things go a crime is committed yeah and police go out and investigate the crime that’s right with guys like us they investigate us trying to find the crime you it goes the opposite way in one you got it in one you know the opposite way they’re

Trying to build a case against you you catch me doing it on camera you catch me doing it I don’t do nothing same thing I used to tell the agents hey look you’re on one side I’m on the other that’s right you catch me you do your job you

Get me hey fine just don’t frame me I was arrested probably 18 times dur my time on the street but I went to trial five times okay five times I was either dismissed or acquitted yeah yeah every case was a bad case every case was a

Setup yeah they never got me for what I was doing they were making up all this stuff for what I didn’t do and this place is like you you took a fool I took a fool for what I didn’t do you know so when they say oh you know police cases

Oh there’s no smoke without fire I always say to magicians make smoke but there’s no fire you know I’ll tell you what happened in the United States when they came out with the racketeering law the RICO Act it was a devastating statute all my friend myself I had three

Reco cases three yeah but um what happened is that the fear of guys on the street was transferred to the government because now you go down on one count 20 years yeah no parole you get 20 you’re doing 17 and a half that’s right so what

Happens a lot of the guys they put him in a room they Indi him on Rico and they say hey you got five counts you’re going away for a hundred years and that’s the kind of time they were giving guys I was facing like 300 years so many guys

Became informant rolled over cuz they were afraid yeah they’re afraid to spend their rest of their life in prison how much time did you do BU 13 years 13 yeah it’s a good stretch I did eight it’s enough yeah in 1986 Fortune Magazine wrote a big article 50 most powerful and

Biggest mob bosses in the country it was half the magazine huge article I was in jail at the time and they featured six of us I was one of the six and then they have a chart and they they lab the 50 of us according to rank and wealth and

Power right I’m number 18 on the list I’m the youngest guy on the list I was five behind Gotti he hadn’t been made B yet out of that list of 50 some 30 odd years later 48 of them are dead number 49 is doing life and I’m the only one

Alive and free that’s a very treacherous life to navigate if you die of old age and you die free you’ve really accomplished something this is what I’m saying I’m 72 now Mike right and I’ve so am I way are you really yes congratulations same to you when’s your

Birthday 23rd November I’m I’m a Sagittarian I’m older than you Bobby no right you’re cutting ears now Michael cutting I’m in May May of 51 you’re in November 51 respect your elders Now the reason I walked away from that life I call it a bad life and evil life now I’m not calling a guys evil I was one of them you know I just happen to be very fortunate but I have not I don’t know any family of any member of that

Life including my own not my wife and kids I spared them that hasn’t been totally devastated walk away yeah but mik I think I’ve got that’s why I left the life I I got to tell you I’m I’ve meet this young girl she’s now my wife of 38

Years I fall very much in love with her I want to marry her I said am I going to do the same thing to her cuz I had a big bullseye on my back they wouldn’t leave me alone I said I’m going to marry this

Girl and she’s going to be alone for the rest of her life I got to make a choice and that’s what caused me to start to get out of the life I’ll tell you what that was a blessing for you 100% that was a blessing for you sometimes people

Say do you miss the old life and in a way I say yes some some parts I I miss some positive too and but I say would you have it now no cuz as I said you know I’ve got peace now and that is priceless to me I walked away from it

And but as you said the hardest thing easiest thing is getting into it hardest thing is coming at it takes a very special man it was hard to get away I mean my my whole mindset was so it it was a struggle to leave you know it took

Took me years people ask me you know Michael what do you miss about the life if anything and it wasn’t the money and all of that because anybody can make money you make money anyway but it was that Brotherhood that camaraderie with the guys I look at it there and I tell

You I’ve got a beautiful life now Michael I’ve got something that money could never buy I got peace yeah and I’ve got this little family and they’re beautiful little kids and all and I went out with them and and it was not just seeing me I I know it sounds crazy

Michael but seeing laughing and running about and I love it I couldn’t do that in my previous life I had to be sitting there like that I’m wondering who is someone coming to whack me is someone going to come in and try and take over I

Never had Peace of Mind Michael yeah how many kids you have I’ve got uh one daughter alive one daughter Dead uh but I’m getting married so I’ve got one two three you get married again yeah yeah I like wedding congratulations I like wedding cake Michael no I’m I’m so in

Love it’s it’s untrue when are you getting married there uh we’re not going afford it you know I ain’t got the I ain’t got all the I was going to say if I’m in town i’ I’d be a pleasure to you you get an invite anyway okay all

Right you got an invite anyway there you go thank you and that’s the end of good and the end of in 1975 I actually took an oath uh with five other gentlemen became a sworn made member of the family and just to show you how fortunate I am the Five Guys

That I took the oath with they were all murdered later on every one of them none of them survived