This is a difficult email to write, but I’ve reached the limit of my endurance with this journey. I purchased a Roccbox years ago and spent about a month trying to bake Neapolitan pizza. I got all the best ingredients as recommended in the forums and followed Tony Gemignani’s recipe in the Pizza bible. However my pizza dough always either broke during stretching, stuck to the peel or failed to cook properly in the oven and I gave up in embarrassment after several separate sessions. Then about a year ago I decided to just cook standard new york style pizza and got quite good at it and so I decided a few months ago to try my hand at Neapolitan, my favourite style. Again I purchased all the best ingredients, read all the FAQ’s, watched dozens of videos from Vito Iacopelli, Gozney, Ooni and others.
Since then I’ve tried 10 different recipes and every single attempt has been a complete flop, I mean out of the 150 or so balls I’ve made in total I would say less than 10 made it into the oven. So far I’ve tried the following recipies:
* https://mypizzacorner.com/pizza-recipes/authentic-neapolitan-pizza-recipe-how-to-make-the-perfect-neapolitan-pizza/
* https://www.vincenzosplate.com/neapolitan-pizza-dough/
* https://thepizzaheaven.com/margherita/
* https://www.stadlermade.com/how-to-make-neapolitan-style-pizza-dough/
* https://eu.gozney.com/blogs/recipes/neapolitan-pizza
* + others from youtube
I’ve tried:
* with and without a poolish
* Hydrations from 57-70%
* Active and IDY (no fresh available)
* Cold ferments from 24-72 hours at 3c
* Short bulk ferments with long proof
* Long bulk ferments with short proof
* Temperatures from 400-460c and turning down flame once launched.
* Kneading with a Kitchenaid for 7mins, kneading with my hands for 5-20 mins, typically around 5 mins.
My main issues are:
* When I’m ready to bake my dough always looks like pancakes, its flat – it looks nothing like the puffy squares in Vito’s pizza boxes. – see photos from two different attempts – https://imgur.com/a/XCRedG9
* Getting the pizza onto the peel without it sticking to the counter. I work with a granite counter with a mixture of 00 and semolina. After carefully pushing the air out to the edge to try create a puffy canotto style I stretch the dough out to 12″ using a variety of methods I’ve learnt from youtube. On the counter it looks OK at this stage. However when I attempt to pull it onto the peel some part of it sticks to the counter and then everything goes bad e.g. https://imgur.com/a/5GkU2Ap
* Getting the pizza stuck to the peel – I’ve learnt how to jiggle the peel back and forth to ensure its not stuck but often its stuck immediately after getting it onto the peel.
* Crust not rising – My crust looks more like a standard NYC crust.
So I need help. I live on an Italian island where its currently in the low 30’s celcius (90-95f) and I suspect this could be part of the issue although I always use the pizza app on my phone to check yeast based on RT and CT temperatures. I’m using Caputo 00 pizzeria flour (blue bag), Caputo active yeast and I’ve also tried multiple IDY brands.
I need someone to walk me through the whole process and review everything I’m doing to diagnose the issue/s. I realise this would take some time and effort and so I’m willing to pay you generously in Bitcoin or Paypal for your time. Is there someone out there with lots of experience that would be willing to help me?
Thanks!
by deepfish1
17 Comments
Hello /u/deepfish1!
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it looks like your dough have no strength. do you mix by hand or machine?
>I live on an Italian island
are you Italian? I’m asking because I’m not sure about some technical terms in English, if we can talk in Italian is better.
I notice that you didn’t mention your kneading time/technique. It’s not always well explained in the recipes; many of them assume you’ll just know, but how you knead and shape your balls has a huge effect on gluten formation. Those doughs look like they not only lack proper gluten formation, but were balled ‘slack’, allowing them to ‘melt’.
Ok, I‘ll try and diagnose your problem and give you some tips and pointers:
1) literally all problems you are facing (pancake balls, sticky dough, ripping dough) are down to an inadequate lack of gluten development, as was pointed out
2) to combat this, make it a bit easier to develop proper gluten by a) purchasing some Manitoba bread flour with a gluten content of 14%+ and b) a little cheat by getting some pure gluten and mixing in 5-10g of that per 500g of flour
2) knead with your machine and do it a lot longer than you describe. I personally use a semi-professional spiral mixer which enacts a multiple of force into the dough compared to your Kitchen Aid and I almost never knead shorter than 30mins with 5 minute rests around every 10 minutes
3) use autolysis to your advantage: take 90% of your water and mix it with your dough until a little shaggy. Cover and rest for 20-40 minutes and only then add the rest of your water with the yeast. This already forms a very strong gluten network through proper hydration and reduces the kneading time required for manual denaturalisation of the gluten protein(side note: I found the Caputo dry yeast to be absolutely terrible)
4) add a little olive oil to your recipe to get you started (around 30g per 1kg of dough) for the last 5 minutes of kneading until the dough looks Matte rather than shiny again.. It’s not traditional Neapolitan, I know, but it really helps when handling the dough and helps you break that frustration barrier
5) add the salt around 20 minutes into your knead, it hinders gluten development massively.
6) and this is super important: look up what a window pane test is and only stop the kneading once the dough passes that test for full gluten development!
7) after kneading, transfer the dough to your counter, cover with bowl or cling film and let it rest AGAIN for 30-40 minutes
8) make sure you know how to ball your dough and do it twice, with 1h in between. Balling wrong or not tight enough will lead to pancake dough.
9) using a poolish helps form a powerful dough as the preferment is autolysis on steroids.
I hope some of this helps!
It‘s not a description of the entire production process, obviously, and only focussed on those parts you should change or adapt in your process. Bulk ferment, cold proof etc. are your choice entirely.
Edit: I‘m in love with Modernist Pizza. It’s expensive but a good investment to understand and visually learn the biochemical processes in pizza making.
Sounds like you’ve done a tonne of research on this so I’m surprised you are experiencing so many issues.
Let’s talk about your issues!
**Kneading** – You want your dough to have enough strength so it can be stretched without ripping to form a pizza. I knead my dough by hand, but it’s a lot of effort so I use the ‘Fold technique’. First, I mix my ingredients accordingly, whether using a Poolish or a direct dough, mix accordingly. I give it a 5 min mix/kneading by hand to make sure all the ingredients are mixed well.
Then I let it rest for 40 minutes. After 40 minutes, it will be slightly smoother. I then begin the ‘Fold technique’ by grabbing 1 edge of the dough and stretching it as far as it will go, then fold it on top of itself, go around in a circle and repeat this 5 times. Then let it rest for 20 minutes. Repeat this 3 times. It takes 1 minute work to do the 5 folds, if even that.
Once you are done with the fold technique, you can test the strenght of your dough by seeing if it can pass the ‘Window Pane’ technique or close to passing. If not, you can implement more kneading prior to the folding method.
**Getting the Pizza on the peel -** This should be as easy as the video, make sure you have semolina under the pizza and it should slide right on there with little issues. If you are doing this, but still having issues.. then it must be related to the humidty in your area. Maybe add MORE semolina than you normally would under the pizza. Once the pizza is on the peel, you want to shake it as you mentioned, if you have the Gozney Pizza Peel, excess flour will fall through the holes in the peel. You need to launch your pizza into the pizza oven AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
Be confident with this process, not careful, not slow. You need to be fast, work with intent, speed and confidence.
1 Tip here is to… put semolina under the pizza as you shape it. Once you have finished shaping, sprinkle a tiny bit more under the pizza. Apply the toppings, before you go to put the pizza under the peel, use a dough spatula to put a tiny bit more semolina under the pizza. Add some semolina to your pizza peel to make sure it ‘s dry. Then pick it up as fast as possible.
The other tip is to build the pizza on the peel itself. You can check out the instagram for The Curly Stu, he uses the Roccbox Gozney in his business and he always builds his pizza’s on the peel. Maybe try this method to see if it works better for you.
**Flat Dough -** This is not a major issue, you are also spacing your dough balls out too much. You should have them closer together to support each other. I personally like using circular plastic containers I purchased from Ikea. They contain a dough ball perfectly, I apply a tiny tiny layer of oil to stop the dough sticking, i turn it upside down and a PERFECTLY shaped dough ball falls out! It’s easy. Flat dough can happen.
**Crust not rising -** This should be impossible. I find if I do a 24 hour room temp dough, or a 72 hour cold ferment… I always get bubbles/rising. So maybe you are not kneading it correctly, hopefully my kneading tips help. Temp of oven I aim for is around 750-800F I keep the flame on the entire time. Once everything looks good, I take the pizza out, I turn off the flame. If the bottom of the Pizza is not browned to my liking? I put the pizza back on the pizza stone with flame off, then the crust won’t burn and the base will cook more.
I’m sure some other Pizza guru can provide better assistance, I am an amateur but I am not experiencing the problems you are, so hopefully some of this helps. Good luck.
I don’t have the experience that other commenters have regarding dough preparation, but I’ll flag a really basic point that I fell foul of when I first made sourdough bread. Make sure no one in your household is cleaning your worktop with antibacterial spray. Took me a few failed attempts at sourdough to realise that I was inadvertently killing the yeast off by kneading it on the countertop that my wife had recently wiped down with antibacterial spray 🤦♂️. I now have a heavy wooden board on which to work which only ever gets cleaned with soap.
Your dough looks severly underproofed.
Try the following recipe:
600g Flour (make sure its high protein, that might be another factor)
360g Cold Water
15g Salt
1g Fresh Yeast
When kneading the dough, don’t listen to Vito as his dough is NEVER properly developed. You need to be able to pass the windowpane test.
After that, let it rest at room temperature for about 1hour, then bulk ferment it for 24h. If it doesn’t rise in the bulk fermentation phase, it will run flat as the yeast doesnt give it its stability.
I had the same problems, I never managed to develop the gluten with my KitchenAid, but I was too lazy to knead it by hand, too.
If you can, try buying a spiral mixer, you will never ever have problems again.
Are you using accurate scales to measure your yeast out? I use PizzApp and I’ve tried 58% to 65% hydration without any issues. I’m still using the same tub of active dried yeast I bought last year.
I don’t actually think kneading is that important. I mix the ingredients together with a wooden spoon until it is incorporated into a shaggy mess and then cover it and leave it for 30 mins. I then take it out and knead it for the minimum time necessary to create a smooth, lump free ball. Usually at this point I’m putting in the fridge for 24 hours before balling up and leaving it out at room temperature for about 6 hours.
Using the settings on Pizzapp you can specify how long it will be in the fridge and at room temp, and what the temperatures are going to be. It will then tell you the exact amount of yeast you need.
It rises perfectly every time. When it comes to making the base I put a pile of Semola on the worktop and shape my base on that to prevent it sticking.
I move the excess flour away before adding toppings, and the slide the lightly floured peel underneath once its done.
Make a single, low hydrated dough ball at 50% hydration as an experiment. See how you like that dough consistency and adjust water from there. I suspect this dough will be far stronger than what you have here.
Agree with all above. Also make sure to ball the dough tightly enough and pack near other balls for support or individual bowls. I find pulling the ball towards me and repeating at different angles around the ball helps stretch the ball tightly and it keeps it shape and gives a smooth ball. I do this for the bulk ferment also.
Keep it up, think how good it’s gonna be when you crack that code!
Have you tried using all purpose flour
Man, I use semolina only when preparing the stretch, works a treat.i stretch it then put it on the peel and use a wooden one. I put a bit of semolina on peel prior too. I don’t bother building then putting on the peel, too much of a pain and I don’t see the point.
At 30 deg for a cold prove I’d ball it and leave on coubter for 3 or 4 hrs before making pizza, no more than that.
Looks like lack of gluten development to me – stretch and fold 15 mins apart until you get a shiny tight ball of dough at the start of fermentation
Try bread flour instead of 00,
OP your dough sounds like it’s over proofed. You describe it being extremely hot at the moment where you are located. You’ve tried so many recipes so it’s not easy to speak to any one issue because there could be a variety of mistakes depending on what type of dough you’re trying to make…but dough that doesn’t hold its shape either never had strength of lost it when it was over proofed. Dough that doesn’t rise in the oven is either under proofed…or more likely over proofed. The acids produced by the yeast destroy the gluten chains and you get a puddle of water and flour.
I would stop trying a hundred different recipes and stick to one. Try to nail a simple recipe and don’t worry about all this crazy 72hr ferment time stuff. Make a simple dough where you mix, knead (or use mixer) until it passes the window pane test, proof until it’s doubled, shape it into balls, keep in fridge until baking. You should be able to make a usable dough within 4-5 hours. If you can’t to do that, don’t add any more variables. That said, it is very curious that you are having so much trouble with neopolitan dough but you seem to be fine with other types of pizza dough?
Anyways, the majority of issues with making dough seem to be due to lack of gluten development, over proofing, and not making the same recipe enough times to actually understand what you are doing wrong/right.
Hey! First of all, it’s great to hear that you’re so dedicated and willed not to stop despite the troubles you’re facing!
My pizza-journey also started with trying over and over again.
Currently, I work part time as a **Pizzaiolo** at a neapolitan restaurant (higher end of the price spectrum), which is following the **AVPN** guidelines (apart from much higher amount of tipo1 flour and longer exposure of the dough to cold temp.).
I would suggest going for **super basic steps: hand mixing, minimal yeast, fermentazione a temperatura ambiente** and seeing how even different (ambient) temperatures affect your dough. Maybe look for a place thats below 26 degrees celsius. (I’ll come back to that later).
I’ve read that you’re going for a spiral mixer now. Those are great, but that’s not the solution to the issues your facing. Maybe the chance for frustration might even be higher. Look at someone like Franco Pepe who is doing all his dough **by hand** (apart from not really using measurements but working with the feel and smell of the dough).
“**PizzApp+**” is a great starting point (and the only reliable app I’ve encountered, since it for instance calculates the yeast correctly, which means: triple the amout of flour doesn’t mean triple the amount of yeast).**Something specific/important I’ve noticed**: I mostly use the same Caputo dry yeast like you do, and it tends to **work a bit differently from other dry yeasts** I’ve tried, as it seems to work a bit slower/less intense, but more consistent over a longer period of time. For a 16-24 hour dough, you’ll need a **tiny bit more** of it compared to what the calculator tells you.
You need to get a **feeling** for the dough, and sth. like the “window test” others have mentioned can’t replace that. When I mix by hand, my dough almost never looks as silky smooth as quickly as when I’m using a spiral mixer. You can just let **time & chemistry** do their thing.
What totally changed my understanding of dough, is experimenting with totally different hydration settings, like below 60% and above 90%. It’s not necessary though.
Like I tried to point out before, best would be going for basic things/recipes/methods.If you want, you can contact me for more specific (“recipes” that work in warmer environments etc.)
Keep on trying! Now with the “errors” you were facing, there’s now room for bigger + consistent improvements 🙂
Did you test your yeast? Try lukewarm water 1 cup 1 t yeast 2 T flour. Does it bubble up after 10 minutes.
Dough being flatten out means the dough is too warm and probably exhausted.