What role might artificial intelligence play in making the perfect meal? How will AI transform food creation—and creation more generally? Massimo Bottura—legendary Italian chef and entrepreneur—joins Possible to talk about the future of food, human creativity, and how technology factors in. Massimo, Aria, and Reid discuss the roles of joy and innovation in fine dining, technology’s potential to enhance human connection, and Food for Soul, the nonprofit Massimo and his wife Lara created to turn surplus food into incredible community meals for people in need around the world.
Plus, Massimo reacts to a few AI surprises, including: Reid’s avatar speaking Italian; Pi’s predictions about restaurants of the future; and a customized copy of Reid’s book, Impromptu, that includes a personalized section for Massimo.
Read the transcript of this episode here: https://www.possible.fm/podcast/massimo/
For more info on the podcast and transcripts of all the episodes, visit: https://www.possible.fm/podcast/
Topics:
0:00 – Introduction of Massimo Bottura, chef, entrepreneur, and author
0:31 – A special AI Reid video clip for Massimo
1:20 – The importance of looking at the past creatively, not nostalgically
2:40 – Reid’s Italian, and human connection through technology
3:36 – Massimo’s background and passion for food, art, and music
5:26 – The role of technology in perfecting traditional dishes like pizza
7:09 – Story behind “Oops! I dropped the lemon tart”
9:21 – Joy, innovation, and community in dining experiences
10:32 – The significance of service in fine dining
12:39 – Combining poetry, art, and music with food at Casa Maria Luigia
16:25 – Reid’s book “Impromptu” and Massimo’s thoughts on AI in the kitchen
17:34 – The role of doubt in creativity and innovation
17:51 – Pi’s vision for restaurants of the future with AI and technology
19:23 – Massimo’s thoughts on robots and chefs in future kitchens
23:38 – Food for Soul project: origins, impact, and global reach
31:41 – Massimo and Lara’s book “Slow Food, Fast Cars”
33:06 – Experiencing the beauty of nature in Italy with David Beckham
35:06 – The importance of culture for the next generation of chefs and staff
38:35 – Rapid-fire questions: Massimo’s optimism and vision for the future
Select mentions:
Food for Soul: https://www.foodforsoul.it/
Slow Food, Fast Cars by Massimo Bottura and Lara Gilmore: https://www.phaidon.com/store/cookbooks-food-and-drink/slow-food-fast-cars-casa-maria-luigia-stories-and-recipes-9781838667245/
Reid’s 2023 Bologna Business School commencement speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKC27SXeIB4
Possible is an award-winning podcast that sketches out the brightest version of the future—and what it will take to get there. Most of all, it asks: what if, in the future, everything breaks humanity’s way? Tune in for grounded and speculative takes on how technology—and, in particular, AI—is inspiring change and transforming the future. Hosted by Reid Hoffman and Aria Finger, each episode features an interview with an ambitious builder or deep thinker on a topic, from art to geopolitics and from healthcare to education. These conversations also showcase another kind of guest: AI. Whether it’s Inflection’s Pi, OpenAI’s ChatGPT or other AI tools, each episode will use AI to enhance and advance our discussion about what humanity could possibly get right if we leverage technology—and our collective effort—effectively.
I’m a chef an entrepreneur uh I’m uh but my mind if I have to look deep into my mind I think I am a renaissance man you know our small restaurants um are kind of Renaissance atellier where we create culture we develop knowledge Consciousness sense of responsibility this what we who I am masimo one of the things we want to kick off with is we’ve all been playing around with an AI version of Reed so that uh Reed can replicate himself and do so much more so we made a special video just for you so just press play on that video and uh take a look so what did I say so I I have no idea what you know you said exactly what I always say you know evolving evolving uh tradition it’s an a very important exercise because uh it’s about looking at the past don’t forget about the past but look at at the past but in a Critic way not in a nostalgic one not the hashes but the the flame and um look looking at the past in a Critic way you can split and get the best from the past into the future what we what I was talking yesterday night about the crunchy part of the lasagna I don’t care about eating a Big Slice of lasagna I care about eating emotions so that’s how you evolve Cuisine how you uh recreate new tradition evolve tradition because otherwise they’re going to be Dusty and uh you don’t want that you want the future because in my mind there’s always future I am born like that so in my future there will be always future but future is not a place future is a state of mind so is your mind that is driving you guiding you into the future Yep this is uh what what we were talking about so how was Reeds Italian was perfect amazing well it’s one of the things that we want to kind of show is that through technology we can actually become more human and so for example obviously I speak like no Italian you know Chia Ben you know like like almost no Italian but like through this you can actually create more human connection it’s one of the things I love about your work I mean as part of what we first learned at at Castle Luigi last night here in San Francisco at the repor is the food and the experience is part of the human connection so how do you how do you kind of think about like what that creation is and that the interface point between the the the technology of of what you’re inventing and that human connection I keep saying to my team to every guest they come from all over the world to francescana that you don’t come to eat good food you know you come to eat emotions okay so I am I grew up in a very large family with u you know the uh culture of uh food deeply into our DNA I keep saying that my muscles are made by parano reano and in my vein there’s a lot of balsamic vinegar okay I drank too much Lambrusco and so the you know they make me a little bit cuckoo but it’s okay I love it and uh so I’m stay up there but what I want is like they all our amazing guests they want to share joy and happiness with us they walk into a c franciscana in Kasam Maria luiga and they experience The Who I Am they experience they eat the Tero if you ask me what we’re doing every day I would say I compress into edible bites my passion uh food uh art music uh poetry uh sitting on centuries of History because my cooking is deeply Italian but filter everything is filter by a contemporary mind if you’re not contemporary and you’re nostalgic everything you do is going to disappear because uh it’s like step by step from one passing to another you know it disappear think about technology okay I’m thinking now about technology and and connecting um artificial intelligence what how and how can help us in there is a an incredible uh company in Mona called ital Pizza they’re making pizza okay making pizza it’s a very complex exercise especially for the East for the the the the the dough Etc but if you have a machine with no um uh with cold with a cold approach to everything you do getting the perfect uh tomato with the perfect uh part of uh extra virgin olive oil oregano Etc you have an A you know the perfect mozzarella the dough with the right temperature the right things you can make a pizza that is the same in Mona or in Czech Republic and it’s cook at the same Perfection temperature to get and replicate the perfect napoletan Pizza aamp you know very high temperature oven you know this is the way you can use technology then the chef can be and can focus on different things so there’s no uh human mistakes in every day because the machine are taking off those mistakes the product is perfectly set and uh the chef is thinking about the the new recipe new things to uh and not get lost into correcting all the mistakes of the human being this is what I and one of the things that then allows the chef to do is the oops I dropped the lemon tart pie could you explain ah oops I dropped the lemon tart a dish that’s not just delicious but has a fascinating story behind it it all started when the pastry chef condo takahiko was plating a perfectly crafted lemon tart at masimo B’s world-renowned restaurant Osteria francescana but then disaster struck he accidentally dropped the tart instead of getting angry patura saw Beauty in the chaos and told takahiko to carefully collect the Fallen pieces with some added flourishes a new dish was born one that celebrated imperfection and the unexpected and thus oops I dropped the lemon tart was created becoming a signature dish at Osteria franch esana and a testament to turning a culinary disaster into a delicious work of art because the AI is probably not that’s exactly that’s exactly what the chef has to do you know like con um recreate you know and correct or correct or like ride that kind of mistakes Mak the mistakes is a is an imperfect uh uh way and approach especially in a 3ish Landstar restaurant you know no our it’s the best restaurant in the world yeah of course I’m breaking a taret but it’s it’s a you know intellectual exercise it’s uh something that in your everyday life full of poetry um and an obligation uh if the Poetry disappear because the obligation are uh completely um cancel uh the Poetry you’re going to get lost into the everyday life and you’ll never ever could imagine to recreate to create a broken lemon tart and serve a broken lemon tart in a three m l star because you think in a different direction but if everyone look at left and the the imperfection I look right and I get the imperfection as an opportunity to create something new I mean I the thing that I love is when I think of like fine dining I think of like up stay in your own L like no joy no smileing do your own thing and when you talk about emotions I mean you know you said the crunchy part of the lasagna oops I dropped the lemon tart like there’s so much joy and so much Innovation and last night we were lucky enough to be at your refettorio here in San Francisco and when you think of a soup kitchen you don’t usually think of joy you don’t think of innovation but we we were at a fancy restaurant it was so beautiful people can come in so how do you think of the emotion of joy and Innovation because you’re you’re changing things on its head this is not how three Michelin stars used to go in the past and I love that new way of thinking this is a perfect observation we work about this and we were reflecting about this since 10 years and uh what we have uh understood and I was uh saying yesterday everybody talks about the chef but service is is 50% of the result of the evening did you notice how great the service were always perfectly in time very respectful always smiling this is the way in no franciscana as in all our restaurant service is part of the uh all project development project and uh because service is communication they have to know everything that is happening in the kitchen and that’s why I want them in a creative process involv in a creative process because they have to learn in using the mental palette how to mix things getting the perfect mixture or the perfect smile understand the psychology of this customer or the other customer what they need you know and what they don’t but the most important thing is my food is getting is is the three land star and goes into um into your your under your skin you know and uh because a good a good meal is just a good meal next good meal you’re going to forget about my good meal but if I can transfer emotion in my food is going to stay with you forever that’s that’s the difference that’s the difference and a team is a team I keep saying to everyone and I wrote a very nice message to all the guests they come to oia or to cavalino or gatde by myself I’m masima with my team we are Ria franciscana it’s a teamwork if you don’t understand that you don’t understand the essence of restaurant restaurant from the word refer to restore restore the soul of the guest they travel to come in your place this is the essence of the resturant so thinking about restoring Souls one of the things that I loved about the lunch we had uh you know Cassie Luigi was the blend from poetry to artwork to music into the food so talk a little bit about how those kind of combinations those those uh Inspirations those ways of creating and thinking it’s it when say that I compress my passion into U edible bites passion or passion and uh um you know I grew up in a family where my mom she was listening to Opera and she was teaching us how to listen the adao you know the adao is the most important one because from Theo you understand everything you know but if you can’t listen the Ada to the adao you know very mild touch you cannot listen to the old opera my brother they were crazy about this or that and the older one was like Beatles the other was Rolling Stones and they were fighting you know the third one was into blues and country I don’t know why don’t ask me why but you know and uh from Blues to Jazz the step is very short so to me I’m like really into that kind of music and uh and uh Jazz it’s all about you know emotion through passion you transfer emotions and at the end is all that and Kazam marua is the sum of everything what me and Lara we decide to do is like sharing sharing uh in a place called Kaza not pretentious very humble Kaza home we want to treat everyone like home every single guest they feel they can walk in go in the music room pick one of the 8,000 vinyls are there and listen to these vinyls as in my home the kitchen is always open as my mom always said my mom she always had a chair for the unexpected guest because in a large family like ours of course oh the friend of the friend of the friend of the girlfriend the new friend is coming you know um the kitchen is there open with parano and lambco first of all I’m going to snack you know not parano not a cheese you I’m going to snack mod and drink a little bit of the unique Lambrusco that they made for us so this is the way Kaza is home and we want to share this kind of experience and in the experience art is a big part because U since we met in New York me and laara I was like extremely skeptic about uh you know Contemporary Art to me art was over after Duan and you know and she said I’m not sure it’s like that uh so just uh look at the things deeper try to understand the message behind the scene the message that the the artist wants to share and from there we found a way to create something to share a passion that keep us together and keep us help us to evolve and that’s how we we start looking at art in a totally different way and uh we start you know surrounded ourself our kids with art we have two incredible books on the table and I want to talk about both of them so first you’re holding up Reed’s book impromptu that he wrote with gb4 but it is a special copy because at the end we have some customization just for you so tell me about when you opened the book you came to the end you saw the pictures of of you created by AI would would love to hear how you felt about it first of all when we met in Moda we start talking about the artificial intelligence and how he recreate and how he was writing this book and the dialogue and you know a friend of his was coming and we were like but did you try this did you try that I have a kitchen and I’m dialoging with the kitchen I was like whoa whoa whoa whoa what’s going on this is these guys there blow my mind you know I always the only the only way for me to develop things is through my mental pallet no but the dialogue with artificial intelligence it’s about putting kiwi close to oysters you know and and it’s not something familiar for me but it’s something interesting to understand you know uh one of the key point for me to evolve and create future it’s about having doubt not having something oh I know everything no I don’t I have doubt so I walk into the kitchen with doubt and I have to give answer to this doubt Mimo we actually have one more AI surprise so you were talking about the future that’s what you’re building you’re thinking about the future so we actually asked pie which is a personal intelligence it’s a a chatbot created by Reeds company inflection exactly and so we asked Pi we said what do you think a restaurant could look like 50 years from now and what is your vision of the future of um of communal eating so I’m going to pull up this is and so we didn’t script this we didn’t say anything we just asked pie what this would be in 50 years restaurants could be quite different from what we’re used to now imagine fully automated restaurants where robots and AI handle the entire process from order taking to food preparation and delivery immersive dining experiences could become the norm with VR and AR Technologies transporting diners to Exotic locations while they enjoy their meals personalized menus might become standard with AI and data allowing restaurants to tailor dishes to individual preference dietary restrictions and even current moods 3D printed meals could become commonplace creating customized dishes that are visually stunning nutritious and delicious despite all these technological advancements some aspects of dining out might remain the same like the importance of human interaction and of course delicious food as I said before um in a large scale uh PL B es for to control the quality um robots can really help because they’re cold they’re they know exactly what to do they not make mistake like the human mistakes okay but a chef can manage the IR rational a robot not so the moment in the in know in my restaurant in Japan imagine 20 robots it’s it’s like a a a fake image you know you know 20 robots like 20 Japanese chefs in the kitchen they’re like incredibly perfect on everything slice the fish boneless cooking and that they never make a mistake but who is the chef who was managing that people thought I was crazy when I pick a napolitan guy and I match a napolitan guy with 20 Japanese because the napolitan guy is incredibly um constantly in the cloud and with these that and thinking about crazy things but he understand when I talk exactly I’m giving you an example because and he can manage the irrational of things and the Japanese how the reaction oh you know it’s a great reaction because they understand they have a chef that can really manage that kind of stuff Antonio uh is making this uh classic pasta and tomato you think pasta and tomato everybody can make it no no totally wrong you cannot make that kind of pasta and tomato so Antonio is looking for the best tomatoes in Japan there are seven Tomatoes they make they make the perfect tomato together you know one is more ripe one is like more acidic one is extremely sweet one is like bitter okay and you put together the seven tomato and he was serving the pasta and tomato in the middle of the tasting menu because you know couple of uh ratoni is exactly as his mom was doing but with the best seven tomatoes from Japan I went there I taste the pasta and tomato I said Antonio this is not pasta and tomato this is a dessert because these tomatoes are so incredible and this pasta is so incredible that is not and pasta and tomato this is a dessert so if you add a little bit of you know uh uh vegetable so like in but not to show anything so you you get into the Raton with a a kind of extraction of basil and you know you finish everything with a little touch of spiciness but not aggressive like sou of Italy but very round as Japanese style this is going to be the perfect dessert you know Antonio that is the the Japanese they’re looking at me like what is he talking about serving pasta and tomato as a dessert sure Antonio is a napolitan guy and immediately got my idea and he put immediately past and tomato as the finishing taste for the tasting menu plate of the year he got the price plate of the Year pasta and tomato as a dessert dessert of the year one of the things that I want to make sure that you talk about is food for soul like obviously you have this enormous passion for food for creativity for music um but also for for giving back and figuring out how you can do this All differently so tell us sort of the Genesis and and what food for soul has become thanks for the question because H food for soul probably is is the most important project I ever did in my life we ever did in my life because we are the revolution Joseph boys so it was um 2014 and uh at the universal Exposition in Milan all the delegation of the governments they were coming to Mona and try to involve me in many different ways but they never asked me what I was thinking about feed the planet I was talking with L petrini from slow food movement and he was telling telling me about these incredible shocking numbers uh we were we we were 7.5 million people on Earth and uh we were producing food for 12 billion people 860 million people they didn’t have anything to eat and we were wasting 33% of what we were producing more than that you know this is insane but also more than that there’s also that we use water electricity human capital to produce the food and then onethird of what we produce goes to waste and we burn it and become one of the three most crazy causes of climate change no this is not possible so I said to myself I’m going to make my own pavilion but not in the Universal Exposition because at that time now the mayor of Milan Cinda kosala the mayor it was the the the responsible for the the universal Exposition and they said he come come come we’re going to give you space no because if you go into the universal Exposition you get lost into this big Supermarket so uh I finally found a you know a dialogue open a dialogue with the Bishop schola that uh you know he invit me and um we had a very good talk and uh I explained the project in my mind I had to rebuild miracle in Milan from deiso Italiano and created the refectorio like this soup kitchen uh in under the train station but he said come back in one week because I want to thank you for your energy for your passion but um I need to confront with uh Rome so Pope Francis one week later said we don’t want you to bring this light into the center of the city but we found a beautiful space and old abandoned theater in the periphery in the most neglected neighbor in Milan quartier GCO so what I did what we did uh we start in involving creator of beauty artist uh designer Architects and chefs H to rebuild this uh old theater abandoned theater full of dust and R Rusty things and uh we create an amazing Place full of beauty to share with all our guests who are our guest the most vulnerable fragile Souls of the society so what we start doing we start involving all the chefs and use what we have we knew better the power of hospitality with a simple word b Ben welcome come in we take care of you so we were sitting the guest we are sitting the guest because I’m using the past but still going on in the the the repor in Milan is one of the most beautiful place in Milan and and in around the table and share a meal a beautiful Meal made with love because cooking is an act of love from surplus food is wrong to say way food food waste it’s surplus food because we produce food that we don’t use it so I get that food and I transform into amazing meal for people in need at this point we start this this journey and U it was incredible incredible the reaction of the people the delegation everyone was coming but I we thought you know after the universal exposition imagine every day we were unloading the track and transform 150 kilos of black cod from Japan Pavilion or like 80 incredible pull the brass from the French Pavilion that otherwise would be wasted into amazing meal for kids at lunchtime or people in need at dinner time thanks to the most amazing Chef in the world unbelievable so uh after that was like shocking because we were the inspiration for France and Italy to pass the law against food waste you know it was a incredible big deal and um and we start with this but we thought after the universal Exposition that you know the old project was like okay is for our heritage for the city of Milan but the Mayor of Rio De Janeiro connect with us and a couple of other journalists and David SS the founder of gastromotiva and he said we want the same project in Rio de Janeiro for the Olympics so our answer was why not and let’s do it let’s make it I don’t know was so much joy and happiness that we we bre we breathe and we chew during those six months that you know I said okay let’s do it let’s do it and and we did it and from there till now now we have uh 12 + 1 13 refettorio because the Lima one is under reconstruction because there’s an evolution constantly Evolution and um we rescue uh more than 1,000 kilos no uh tonel yeah 10,000 kilos of food surplus transform into millions of meal involving when 110,000 volunteers a chef from all over the world our refector are everywhere from Sydney to Geneva from Naples to San Francisco New York ER Lima Rio Merida Mexico everywhere so this is uh food for soul and U it’s a a beautiful project that as as Focus I call it cultural project because our Focus is through Beauty using Beauty to um fight food waste and social isolation and this is a very very very important project you and Laura have published a book uh slow food fast cars yes so what’s the what’s the what’s the Hope in terms of the offering for how people to to to experience the book and to think about it should they should they be having the uh crispy end of the while they’re reading it no no no no no first of all the book I said Lara this book doesn’t need any picture because when you read the story that you wrote it’s just a book of short stories that they crack me up you know it’s they’re so beautiful you know and um uh I have seen her in the past uh uh three years uh keep writing back to write right right right and every H emotion every uh event every magic moment or simple moment goes into her mind filtered by everything she she thinks and go and and become a short story and I love it and uh so this is a book about short stories then it’s about Kazam Mar about Kazam Maria Lisa and Kazam Maria Lisa is the perfect example of what it is Amelia Emelia and the country side of Emilia Roman this is is a very um is a little story you know I was shooting a um uh promo with David Beckham and U we were shooting for Maserati and at one point we had a stop we were sitting lying on the bench close to the to the Rosetto from the the Ed frose and was July at one point there was like this Oak that was like you know in the middle of the field and it was hunting you know and we were there at one point David he looked at me and he said masimo I said yeah what uh I think this is Paradise because there was no one whisper just you know little bird that was coming and I said come on David you know it’s it’s the countryside is MOA you know I got lost into the every day you know into my place without without losing the Poetry of everything and he said are you kidding me look at the field all gold look at the Roses like red on gold look at the Oak and no sound just us and we we were like I’m ready I I can think about everything because there’s no sound the sound of silence you know you know I I wrote something about that you know and and you know I I was like wow this is David backham dad he can live everywhere and he said I imagine Paradise the countryside of Amilia so this book is about that it’s about poetry it’s about things it’s about connection one of the things that was really amazing about the first meal the community the round table that I experienced with you was also uh that part of yours your work Laura’s work the team’s work is not just about us at the table but about the Next Generation about children tell us a little bit about that um that’s one of the my biggest uh um Challenge and dream I’m like uh I treat everyone uh that works for me and um and uh the work at the refettorio as part of the family that’s why we call francescana family we share ideas dream we share mistakes trying to learn by our mistakes and and communicate them one very important uh things culture culture is the future the most important ingredients for a chef of the future for the waiter of the future for everyone every human being is culture if you have culture you can build a better future and I try to involve as many people as I can to learn to learn how to shape his own future Antonio Yello in Tokyo or Matia uh in in Los Angeles they’re not someone they are taking care of the oia guci in Tokyo and Los Angeles but they are human being and is their responsibility to create something very special there I’m behind there I’m protecting them I’m teaching them I’m the guy I’m guiding them but is their responsibility we have an exercise that is called who are you in all our restaurant that we share with all the restaurant in the world that is called o are you and you know what we do all our restaurant are certified zero waste why for one simple reason because we are entrepreneur and waste we are with waste we are losing money and so what we do we use all the scraps from our preparation for the most amazing with the most amazing ingredients in the world to give the opportunity to all the chefs the ster The Apprentice one day you know each one of them to create something special to share with us stuff meal stuff meal is so important because stuff meal creates family and each one of them they can prepare something that talks about who they are and where they come from I am Jose I come from Ecuador I’m practicing in um oia francescana I’m using that suckling pig to explain to you who was my grandmother this is the future this is how to learn not to waste food but to use everything and to to cook with love because cooking is really an act of love and so what we want to do is is [Music] that is there a movie song or book that fills you with optimism Simon and garuna Sound of Silence I love it I love it uh all right rapid fire number two is there a question that you wish people asked you more often the politics I would love to have more politics they ask for help for good ideas oh all right maso can you leave us with a final thought on what you think is possible in the future if everything breaks Humanity’s way so if everything breaks our way what is possible in the next 15 years and and what’s the first step to get there I don’t know I’m like uh I think about um uh my vision for the future and the people I have close to me and I’m listening and like uh I just want to spend time close with people I love and um and I can learn um uh think about uh you know companies they’re like they believe in the future they believe in a sustainable World they believe in Social gesture they believe in keeping the flame of creativity always on and not let them go and uh this is what I want this is what I’m trying to to do because the time is very limited and I’m going to try to use that time for for for my best and communicate to as many people as I can to have a to shape a better future especially for for for the kids for the the new generation possible is produced by Wonder media Network hosted by AR finger and me Reed Hoffman our showrunner is sha young possible is produced by Edie Allard Sarah schle and Paloma Moreno Jimenez Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and editor special thanks to Katie Sanders suria yalamanchili SAA sepa Ian Alice Greg biato Ben Reis sha McKenna and pyramid Studios Lara Gilmore and the little monster Media Company
1 Comment
Wow, amazing guest.