Which almost-forgotten grape Italian varieties deserve more recognition? What might surprise you about the stories and wines from Campania? What makes wine such a great narrative vehicle throughout history?
In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with author Marc Millon.
You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks
Giveaway
Three of you will win a copy of Marc Millon’s terrific new book Italy in a Wineglass: The Story of Italy Through Its Wines.
To qualify, all you have to do is email me at natalie@nataliemaclean.com and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!
Highlights
What was it like spending summers running up and down Mexican pyramids as a child?
How has Marc been influenced by his Korean heritage?
What does Marc remember most vividly about moving to England at 19?
What was it like being a writer and travelling the wine regions of multiple countries pre-internet?
Why was Marc motivated to write his latest book, Italy in a Wineglass?
What makes Italy in a Wineglass so different from other books about Italian wine?
How did the Italian pride in history and story stand out to Marc while researching the book?
What has been the most interesting feedback on the book so far?
Why did the stories from Campania surprise Marc the most?
What makes wine such a great narrative vehicle throughout history?
Which almost-forgotten grape varieties deserve more recognition?
How does the Ancient Greek symposium compare to modern Italian social wine-drinking customs?
Which wine story in the book is most reflective of Italian culture?
About Marc Millon
Marc Millon is a food, wine and travel writer and communicator and the author of numerous books as well as magazine articles published on both sides of the Atlantic. Marc has been travelling, eating, drinking, learning and writing about food, wine and travel for more than 40 years.
Bonus Interview – Bianca Marais
Why did I write “Wine Witch on Fire,” and how did I know when it was the right time?
What was the inciting incident that kicked off my no good, very terrible year?
How did my story and experiences with misogyny resonate with other women in various industries?
How do you balance telling your truth in a memoir and concerns about potential legal repercussions down the line?
Who was responsible for paying for the expensive legal reviews and edits of my manuscript?
Why did I choose the theme of witches as the connecting thread throughout my memoir?
How did I weave in references to deepen the witch metaphor throughout Wine Witch on Fire?
To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/287.
it’s really interesting how Italy has more native grape varieties than any other country in the world for producing for wines how many does it have approximately there are probably as many as 2,000 different grape varieties still grown here but 600 certainly in production but I think what’s really interesting is the story of how some of these great varieties were only saved by the efforts of really amazing wine producers who believed in the grapes and who worked hard to save them from literal Extinction an example would be the Fano grape now Fano we’re seeing a lot more Fano now it’s not just grown in its Heartland of europeia which is Inland Campa but it’s grown in Sicily quite widely a little bit in Calabria and I’m sure cultivated outside of the country as well [Music] do you have a thirst to learn about wine do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people hauntingly beautiful places and amusingly awkward social situations well that’s the blend here on the unreserved wine Talk podcast I’m your host Natalie mlan and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world as well as confessions from my own Tipsy Journey as I write my third book on this subject I’m so glad you’re here now pass me that bottle please and let’s get [Music] started welcome to episode 287 which almost forgotten grape Italian varieties deserve more recognition what might surprise you about the stories and wines from comp and what makes wine such a great narrative vehicle throughout history in today’s episode you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Mark Millan author of Italy and a wine glass the story of Italy through its wines three of you are going to win a copy of Mark’s terrific new book Italy in a wine glass all you have to do is email me at Natalie Nataly ml.com and let me know that you’d like to win a copy I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me if you haven’t won a book yet now’s your chance and keep listening as my goal is to offer lots more books and other prizes with every episode you can qualify no matter where you live as you may have noticed I interview a lot of wine book authors on this podcast far more than I do wine makers why is that glad you asked because I’m looking for fascinating stories that both entertain and educate you about wine there are lots of knowledgeable wine makers out there but those who can tell colorful stories with humor and insight are a smaller subset I’ve had many of them on this show including Randall Graham from California Charles backck from South Africa an Sperling from Niagara among others with authors storytelling is how they we earn our living sure I’m biased but my first priority is always to you as a listener if you can learn about the wines of burgundy Jura the French Alps and today Italy via these authors who in turn have interviewed many wine makers to mine their stories why not you’re still learning about wine grapes regions pairings and cultural issues but I think it’s more fun and often more densely packed with info nuggets that you’ll remember because they’re wrapped in stories that said I’m going to make an effort to include more wine makers going forward stay tuned for these interviews that will often be a bonus to the interviews you already get through this podcast the other thing I’m changing going forward is how I share interviews from when I’ve been a guest on other podcasts for those that focus on my book wine witch on fire rising from the ashes of divorce defamation and drinking too much I’ll include them as a bonus at the end of the regular wine interview on the same episode as I’m doing today with the wonderful Bianca morray host of the podcast that no one tells you about writing she’s hilarious and smart as a whip that way if you love hearing about the behindthescenes process of writing the book and the issues the book explores as many of you have told me that you do you can continue listening after the main wine related interview if not you can skip it it’s gravy not the main meal when I’m interviewed about wine related topics on other podcasts I’ll share those with you as the main [Music] episode speaking of gravy have you read wine witch if yes well then have you bought a copy for a friend or family member please consider doing that if you’d like to support this podcast that I do for you on a volunteer basis to ensure it continues you can order it for yourself or for someone else from any online book retailer no matter where you live it usually arrives in a day or two and of course the ebook is instant it’s a fast read and every little bit helps spread the message in this book of Hope Justice and resilience you can send a copy directly to a friend or family member via the on online retailers and make their day I mean your friends and family not the retailers well I guess you’re making their day too anyway when the gift arrives in the mail rather than a flyer for Discount Pizza which isn’t very healthy for you anyway I’ll put a link in the show notes to All retailers worldwide at Nataly ml.com 287 I also offer a free companion guide that has book club and wine group discussion questions that can also spark a conversation between two friends or a partner spouse it asks questions such as how you feel about your own relationship with wine especially post pandemic marketing tactics towards women and men and whether social media is still a good place to connect with others the guide also has wine recommendations pairings and tips for organizing your own informal wine tasting you can get that at wine witch onf fire.com if you read the book or are reading it I’d love to hear from you if your book club or wine group plans to read it let me know if you’d like me to join in Via Zoom I also have a summary sheet that you can send to book club members who are deciding on upcoming books email me at Natalie Nataly ml.com okay on with the [Music] show Mark Millan is a food wine and travel writer for numerous magazines and books in addition to his new book some of his others include wine a global history the Wine and Food of Europe the wine roads of Europe and A Taste of Britain Mark hosts a weekly podcast called wine food and travel with Mark Millan on the Italian wine podcast Channel and he joins us now now Mark you’re close to Devon you’re not in London but for those of us who are not familiar with where you are welcome it but let us know where you are well it’s so nice to be here and so nice to see you Natalie I’m on the river X which comes down from the city of exiter towards xith in the sea so I’m very near the South Coast in Devon beautiful Devon it’s one of the most beautiful parts of England I think I’ve been living here for more than 45 years so we love it wow yeah I’ve heard things about how beautiful the landscape is there and the coastline before we dive into your wine career let’s chat a little bit about your childhood you were born in Mexico what did your father do my father was an archaeologist so he went down to Mexico well I was born in the 50s and he was fascinated by ancient civilizations and by the pyramids north of Mexico City the city of teu aan although in the 50s it wasn’t considered an urban area but my father believed that you couldn’t have Monumental architecture without urbanization so he set about mapping the city and it was his life work he was a professor eventually had most of his career at the University of Rochester New York so not that far from you and he spent his life mapping the ancient city of teu aan and proved that it was actually the biggest city in the new world so it was an immense task he undertook but for a young boy growing up I mean I only lived there for two years as a baby but then we would spend our summers there so I spent Summers running up and down pyramids that’s something most people can’t say that must have been wonderful my goodness what a magical childhood you obviously picked up his love of history now your mother’s side was Korean how did that influence you well my mother was born in Hawaii but her mother my grandmother immigrated to Hawaii when she was only 16 years old she came over for adventure she was a picture bride what does that mean picture Bride is a catalog virtually she chose a picture of somebody to marry who was was working in Hawaii a Korean in Hawaii and came over as a picture bride when she was only 16 years old and she was a very strong character she became a businesswoman in hon Lulu she was there of course during the time of Pearl Harbor when Pearl Harbor was bombed and yeah she was a successful businesswoman and it was a story we didn’t know his children so much my mother being second generation didn’t really tell the story of her past so much but it was a story we wanted to know so my wife and I when our son was only six months old we spent a lot of time with my grandmother and we wrote a book about my grandmother called flavors of Korea with stories and recipes from a Korean grandmother’s kitchen so it was a food Memoir it was her story but it was also sharing my mother’s story and my story so in some cases we’d have three recipes for the same food bulgogi Korean barbecue for example the way my grandmother did it the way my mother did it and the way we do it oh I love that what a great narrative thread as well to draw through those recipes now you were just 19 when you arrived in England 50 years ago describe what was happening then for you well I came over I came over Natalie for one year for my junior year abroad so I never intended to still be here all these years later England in the’ 70s and being in an English University was very very different for a start the food was really really bad it was as bad as English food had the reputation to be but I think that was institutional cooking because English food is actually very very good now and very exciting but yeah it was a totally new experience the culture was very different the accents were very different but within a few months of arriving I met a wonderful 19-year-old who eventually was to become my wife and my partner in work as well and that’s how I ended up staying here I went back to finish college I was an English major and returned uh the following year my wife it was studying English and Fine Art specializing in photography H wow that’s great now the early days that you spent as a writer were pre- internet I mean you know no email no internet how did you make do like what kind of was going to say Clues but that’s a very technical term what were the challenges of working back then as a writer well Natalie I think because we didn’t know anything else we didn’t know what we were missing but for example you know I talk to students sometimes now about what I do and many of them have never ever seen a typewriter they don’t know what a typewriter is it’s something that you would actually see in a museum well I wrote my early books on a typewriter we had to write a lot of letters to make appointments you wrote letters you didn’t even pick up the phone it wasn’t that easy to travel around to contact people in France and Italy even by phone so we wrote a lot of letters we planned it was very different the traveling was different as well you know we didn’t have satinav to move around going around all the great wine regions of Europe so yeah it was difficult but it was definitely doable I don’t think you can ever go back to doing things the way they were but yeah I used carbon paper to make two copies of my manuscript to deliver to my publisher wow in a way there’s almost a longing for that slower Pace more contemplative more reflective but I’m with you though I don’t think I could do without the tools I have now having had them and just to wrap up that you also were traveling with a young family at one point you mentioned you toured all of France and Italy for two years in a VW Camper van with a trailer and two young children and a Nanny named Paulie I don’t know how you did it I mean I can’t imagine that small space with what five people it was difficult that was a very very hard project it was a very important project there were two huge books they were called the food lovers companion France and the food lovers companion Italy so covering the whole of both countries within two years 500 photograph in each which my wife was taking but of course this was film Natalie so we had to keep the film in the little tiny refrigerator that had to be DHL back to the UK for somebody to put in the refrigerator here and yeah it was quite a pressured project that was more difficult with a six-year-old and a one-year-old that said my children were absolutely wonderful and it really shaped their character as well and I really wouldn’t have wanted to have done it in any other way we were married for 10 years before we had our children and I think we probably published five books within that time four or five books so yeah it was difficult like writing a book without the internet it was possible and it’s who we were and what our family was and if we wanted to do what we did which we did then we just had to find a way and Paulie our Nanny was very very good and she’s still a dear dear friend we see her frequently I imagine she was very compact too as you couldn’t have had someone taken up like a six foot five Nanny anyway no Jacka you’re right she was very small and the children were very small so let’s jump into your latest book about Italian wines what Drew you to this story in the first place I mean you’ve been writing about Italy it’s Wine and Food for a while but what Drew you to this story for this newest book well that’s a really good question and I have to say that I have to go back about 30 years probably when I was writing the wine roads of Italy and then subsequent other books and I had a magazine column but what I kept coming across Natalie was that Italian wines can’t be looked at outside of the context of of the people who make them in the places they come from but also the history behind them the history of the areas the history of the people the history of the country and I was getting a sense that really the history of Italy can be explored through one wine and that’s really the basis of this book history it’s telling the story it’s not the history of wine it’s telling the story of Italy through wine so it’s history and wine yeah I love that and that’s obviously a central part of what makes this book different from others but are there other aspects of this book that would make it very different from other books about Italian wies well I think this focus on history is quite unique and the breadth of the book on we go from the ancient Greeks to co and indeed to Beyond looking into the future even so it’s quite a sweeping time span but it works the wines fit naturally in to all of these different periods and personalities and movements and events I think in a very natural way because the wines are so intimately entwined with the story of Italy yes yeah no it tell some wonderful stories wonderful characters what was the most surprising Insight that you learned or discovered while you were either researching or writing the book I think an Insight that is really part of who Italians are is how proud Italians are and how knowledgeable they are of their own past of the past of their locality they’ll talk about events that happened hundreds of years ago as if they happened yesterday I was sitting on a bus next to I was ADV vinitaly and we were taking the bus to the big exhibition Hall and I sat next to a wine producer from Calabria an area I hadn’t been to a part of a wine Zone I hadn’t even heard of and she told me in a very gentle voice she said uh federo SEO that’s Frederick II the henen Holy Roman Emperor she said he built a castle in her town and she talked about him so fondly as if it was her own son and that’s a of stories you would come across again and again and again this pride in history and story and I think this pride and identity these events this history these wines are the part of the identity of the Italians from wherever they’re from in the country and that’s a wonderful thing to have that sense of identity and I think for those of us who have moved around a lot in life who we you know social Mobility is much greater in our countes to have that solidity and that sense of continuity not just with place but across the centuries is quite extraordinary and remarkable and wonderful H I love that story it really brings to life that identity and the recency kind of thing what’s the most interesting thing someone has said about your book so far I know it’s just new out into the world but have you had any feedback on it well I think what’s been most gratifying for me is I took the book to Vin Italy this year and I was able to present the book at some master classes that I undertook and what I think was most gratifying to me was the reaction of Italians themselves I didn’t write the book for Italians I wrote the book I think for those of us love Italy we travel in Italy you know there’s so much we love about Italy the art the food the wine the places but it was so gratifying for me to have Italians themselves be quite startled by this roach and to enjoy it and to be very complimentary about linking history and wine so that was I think very gratifying yeah I’ll bet wow and what was the most difficult part about writing the book I think the most difficult part Natalie is knowing when to stop I think this was a book that if I’d had another 2 years and if my publisher didn’t mind how long it was as it is I did have to trim 25,000 words and lose some wines and that hurts a writer that’s hard to do to cut words that you spend a lot of time on but it’s a big book as it is it’s 350 something pages and it’s still 120,000 words okay yeah it’s like cutting a limb isn’t it it is a bit like cutting a them and that said I could have gone on and on there’s so many wines stories that could have linked there are chapters that could have been written so yeah I think but you know with projects like this you have to have a deadline you have to know when to stop and you have to actually look forward to book appearing in the world absolutely I always joke with my editor you know if we were back in the days when there was a physical manuscript being taken to the printer as opposed to everything being electronic I’d be chasing after the van going just let me tweak one more sentence like let go let go actually it’s easier to do that that isn’t it sometimes we keep tweaking because we can electronically but there was something about packing up that paper manuscript and taking it to the post office putting it through the post office forgetting about it absolutely so was there a wine region that surprised you most I mean you’re very familiar already with Italy but perhaps in the research for this book there was a wine region that really had some surprises for you well I think it’s interesting because I have an index of WI by region in the back of the book and I wasn’t really aware of that when I was writing the book I wasn’t thinking about I did want to make sure I had wines from each of the 20 regions but I look back and I look at where the areas that had the most wines and they were some of the most exciting chapters and actually these areas these regions go over many many different chapters because the stories from Campa for example span a number of chapters and the stories from say Sicily or Tuscany as well so I think Campa to me is very very exciting because it’s one of the most ancient wine regions in the world you know we have wines and wine connections that go back to the ancient Greeks the Romans of course and you know through history but what’s exciting about Camp is that we’re only now discovering new areas new grap varieties there’s an area just to the west of Naples called the campy FL the fan Fields the burning Fields this was where the Greeks first settled on the Italian Mainland at Kumai the cibil of Kumai sat in her cave and gave prophetic judgments and the I think Lake aeres was the entrance to the underworld but the campy F wines have only emerged re-emerged in the last 20 years and they’re just wonderful wines coming from the campy flre from grapes such as ped Roso and fanina so I love that that we have ancient connections and yet we can almost approach Italy like a new world country with new wines new wine areas to discover yeah what’s old is new and fenina is one of my favorite fresh zesty white wines to have when I’m dining out I always look for it on restaurant wine lists so it’s interesting that you highlight that I’m in sync there now in your introduction you mentioned the idea of wine as a narrative vehicle throw history you’ve mentioned it can you expand on that beyond what you’ve already mentioned well I think it’s a good theme to explore history you know I wouldn’t have wanted to just write a history book and I’ve read a lot of history books as you can imagine while researching this book and I think it’s wine is a way of lubricating history is one way to look at it and that these wines that have direct connections with the various chapters and it’s not just the past we’re coming up right to the present and indeed even looking to the Future perhaps with the peeeee wines that are emerging now what are peeee wines peeee is a type of hybrid grae variety I’m sure they’re being cultivated in Canada peeee varieties that are particularly resistant to fungal diseases which of course this past year has been you know a real problem across Europe because of the climate change and humidity so yeah that’s part of the ongoing story and this connection with history does follow right to the present moment and the way wine is connecting with the concerns we have about climate change about you know so many issues that are pressing to us whether we’re in wine or not so wine connects us to everything absolutely I’ve said it many times but I always always think you could do a liberal arts degree with wine as the Hub and then the spokes you know religion geography science Commerce agriculture everything connects history especially absolutely now that’s actually a lovely idea I would love to be involved in that liberal arts course and teach one of those modules that would be fun and then we could develop it further and go in depth into a masters of Fine Arts in wine and history you could be the department chair I would love that now You’ mentioned new grapes have been discovered but you also mentioned in the book specific wines that have almost been forgotten which of these do you think deserves the more recognition I think it’s really interesting how Italy has more native grape varieties than any other country in the world for producing in production for wines how many does it have approximately there’re about 600 but probably as many as 2 thousand different grape varieties still grown here but 600 certainly in production but I think what’s really interesting is the story of how some of these grape varieties were only saved by the efforts of really amazing wine producers who believed in the grapes and who worked hard to save them from literal Extinction an example would be the Fano grape now Fano we’re seeing a lot more Fano now it’s not just grown in its Heartland of urenia which is Inland Campa but it’s grown in pulia or in Sicily quite widely a little bit in Calabria and I’m sure cultivated outside of the country as well but it was only after the devastation of World War II that a remarkable wine producer named Antonio Mastro bardino believe that the way to rebuild The Vineyards of Campana which had been so ravaged by War he believed in the native grape varieties and he believed in grapes like Fano and he propagated Fano saving it literally from Extinction and began to produce Fano commercially I think as early as the early 1960s so that’s one example but there are a number of other examples of great varieties that have been saved and sorry is Fano a zesty White I just want to clarify is it Fano I wouldn’t call it Dusty it’s a white grae plyy the Elder referred to a grape in his naturales Historia this great Roman Natural History Tome he referred to the UA aanam this grape that was so sweet that the honeybees were very very fond of it and it’s conjectured that Fano was possibly that grape but it was a difficult grape to cultivate it’s suffered from I think it was during flowering the flowers wouldn’t Set uh particularly well particularly if there was any moisture and so you would have uneven bunches it was low yielding and you could see at a time when quantity was the goal rather than quality that Growers would say well let’s get rid of it let’s grow something more productive and Fano was one of those great varieties that was at risk fenina was another one so those are a couple of examples of great varieties that the world wouldn’t know and you love fenina I love fonin I love Fano you know the wine world would be much poorer without these really heroic individuals who believed in these great varieties and believed in that they were worth saving that they could make wines that weren’t just good wines but that are great wines that the world will come in love and I think that you know in the wine world is at risk of having too few flavors too few grape varieties especially you know with varietal buying wines variey you know we have a handful of great varieties Chardon San Blan for whites you know Cabernet marallo these handful SRA these handful of great varieties that can be cultivated Around the World perhaps losing connection with place but in Italy we have this wealth of native great varieties that are linked to place as well it does make Italian wine confusing though yeah it does it’s a challenge you need a big book like yours to figure it out and with the homogeneization of Cabernet charday and so on of course that’s not across the globe but there are more and more that are just sort of your basic chocolate and vanilla flavors and there’s nothing wrong with somebody who wants consistency and wants to know you know doesn’t really want to dive into the whole thing but yeah the wild diversity of Italy is so intriguing and what I find about fenina in particular is that it has this floral notes that aren’t over the top for me personally it’s subjective of course that aren’t too perfumey but still has this lovely floral quality now you described the Symposium and its cultural significance in ancient Greek society how did this ancient practice compare to Modern Italian Social Wine drinking Customs that’s a really good question you know the Symposium was an opportunity for people to get together and share wines but it was a vehicle to discuss have arguments to read poetry to discuss philosophical arguments as well and I think there’s a lot of that in Italian culture today wine is a vehicle again for pleasure and discussion and argument and although it may not be so formal as it was in ancient Greek times I think that when talions get together and the wine is opened and food is on the table as well it’s an opportunity to provoke discourse and I would say that’s the legacy of the Greeks this provoking discourse and thought so which wine story in your book do you find is most reflective of Italian culture I know they all are to varying degrees but is there one that stands out well I think Italian culture is so represented by wine in so many different ways but I think it’s the way that Italians are always wanting to try new things but at the same time remain rooted to tradition and so in my chapter called Tower Power for example I talk about campismo and this is the way that Italians love not just their own region their own neighborhood their own City their own quarter of that City and that reflects in Wine and Food too so it’s this love of their own foods are the best the wines from their own area are the best and even wines from 20 miles down the road you know kianti Classico from the province of Florence may not be drunk and enjoyed so much by people that live in nearby Sienna and it’s this pride in what is their own own that I think is so reflective of Italian culture I wish that would rub off on Canadians because I guess because we’re a young wine culture perhaps we just don’t have the confidence yet some everyone but a large majority do not drink as much onario wine in Ontario for example as we do all other wines and yet that was also my experience Mark when I traveled to both Italy and France like in Bordeaux all you could get was Bordeaux and similarly in burgundy you know they didn’t have California the list for sure let alone other French regions so I love that because it’s very I don’t know like with all the movements these days by local support local you know a smaller environmental footprint when you do I think that’s a great and telling kind of characteristic that the Italians certainly do that in [Music] Spades well there you have it I hope you enjoyed our chat with Mark here are my takeaways number one what makes wine such a great narrative vehicle throughout history as Mark says he read a lot of history books while researching this book and he thinks wine has a way of lubricating history certainly does number two which almost forgotten grape varieties deserve more recognition Mark notes that Italy has more native grape varieties than any other country in the world for producing wines as many as 2,000 different grapes with about 600 impr production he adds that what’s really interesting is the story of how some of these grape varieties were saved by the efforts of really amazing wine producers who believed in the grapes and who worked hard to save them from Extinction his example was fiano that zesty white wine and three what might surprise you about the stories and wines from Campa ca for Mark is very exciting because it’s one of the most ancient wine regions in the world the wine connections go back to the ancient Greeks and Romans and yet he says that in CA they’re only now discovering new areas new grape varieties therefore he believes that we can approach certain regions within Italy like a new world country with new wines and new areas to discover I love that and now for that bonus interview with Bianca morray host of the no one tells you about writing we explore topics such as how did my experiences with misogyny resonate with women in other Industries how do you balance telling your truth in a memoir and concerns about potential legal repercussions down the line and why did I choose the theme of witches as the connecting thread throughout my Memoir here’s our [Music] conversation today’s guest was named the world’s best drinks journalist has also won four James Beard Foundation journalism Awards She’s the bestselling author of red white and drunk all over and hosts the New York Times recommended podcast unreserved wine talk she lives in Ottawa and it’s my absolute pleasure to welcome Natalie McLean Natalie welcome to the show it’s so good to be here with you Bianca and I absolutely love your podcast you’re doing good work so thank you for what you give to the literary Community oh thank you so much for that much appreciated so for our listeners we are chatting today about Natalie’s Memoir which is called wine witch on fire rising from the ashes of divorce deformation and drinking too much holy heck when we talk about a hook it’s all there in the title man it’s it’s all there so so before we dive into that because I have a lot of questions about the Witch theme etc etc but something that I was really fascinated by is at the end of Natalie’s Memoir we have something called post mortia and I’m going to read this to you because we hear so often on the podcast from memoirists who say what kind of place you should write from when you’re writing your Memoir and I feel like memoirists get dictated to a lot in terms of where they should be emotionally etc etc when they write their reasons for writing whereas for novelists you know we have many different reasons for writing I for example write from a place of absolute rage and that’s fine no one bats an eyelid because it’s fiction but but here we go let’s let’s go through this so Natalie writes I didn’t want to share the story I couldn’t even look at notes I’d locked away for years it was too exposing too shameful I’d be vandalizing my own privacy memoirist Glennon Doyle advised write from a scar not an open wound but why even write about it after the healing is done poet Shan Thomas doti had the answer why bother because right now there is someone out there with a wound in the exact shape of your words my Memoir gathered different parts of my life that I thought were separate but were just two sides of an open wound words were my sutures to sew my life back together the scars they created on our patterns of meaning that are stronger than the flesh before the injury right so just bouncing off of that Natalie I know you’re writing from a place now I think 11 years in the future after most of this happened but there is a simmering bubbling anger under all of these words and I was here for it I was totally here for it because if this had happened to me I would be furious and I would want to right from that place so can you take us through this a bit tell our listeners why you wrote this Memoir and and the place you wrote it from sure so as you’ve just read I I really could not even contemplate writing this story for a number of years and then eventually the the story ricocheted around in my head so long that I had to get it out on paper at least as a private exercise in making sense of what it happened and then over more years because this happened a decade ago but I do think the themes the feelings the issues are more relevant today than they were back then so over the years you know I was hearing more and more stories from women in the wine industry but also from women friends in other Industries you know Tech sport finance and the stories were so similar the specifics of course were different but the themes the feelings they were just so so similar so I thought well you know maybe if I share this story I know the cliche for Memoir writers is someone will feel less alone but there’s a reality to that in that with Memoir I think when we read a memoir that moves us we’re reading of course about somebody else’s stories but they’re putting into words our own feelings and we’re looking for a piece of ourselves in their story and through the safety of their story I think that can be healing when we read how they can come out on the other end so you know another old adage it’s it’s not what happened to you it’s what you did with it I think that’s core to a memoir so you know the specifics of my story an online mobbing a a divorce after 20 years being s of blindsided by both everyone else’s situation is probably not going to be anywhere near or close to that but the feelings that can arise from from you know Longing For Love or loss or loneliness or fear of the future That’s The Power of a good mem putting those feelings into words through someone else’s story and being able to read that so that’s why I did it I mean so in a sense yes so that someone out there would feel less alone but also so that I could connect with others and I myself could feel less alone because I think as writers that’s what we do that’s how we connect with the world and with others yeah very much so I mean that’s a reason to sit down buming chair and and put pens paper but you know there was so much in here in terms of personal Universal elements so when we say to our listeners when you’re writing a memoir why is a stranger going to want to pick up your book and spend how many dollars on this thing that you have experienced what is it about it that is going to appeal to them and resonate with them and people pick up Memoirs for for many many different reasons the thing in here that really simmered with me was you know the misogyny that was RI in the wine writing industry well not just wine writing the critics Etc at the time when you were being sort of dragged over the calls in terms of the defamation can we can we first just put that into context for our listeners and then we can discuss it a little bit further from there do you mean what happened the inciting incident yes the inciting incident d we need sound effects okay so it was just before Christmas my family had all gone to bed and we had had a very festive very merry dinner with lots of wine of course and I was checking email one last time it was just before midnight and this Google alert pops up in my inbox and says Natalie mlan world’s best wine writer or content Thief am my heart dropped I mean it just went right through to the souls of my feet because as you know Bianca as a writer that is the worst thing we can be accused of so doctors lose their license for malpractice lawyers get disbarred for misrepresentation writers we get our careers and reputations cancelled for anything to do with copyright issues so I just didn’t I just felt it all coming at me like the words were burning into my retinas and it took me a while to absorb it and to understand what is it that they’re saying what happened here and that’s how I open the story by putting you right into the middle of it and trying to make it as visceral as I can because this is all online where many people will say oh you know just turn it off sticks and stones will break my bones but you know name calling nasty comments they’ll never hurt you but when you make the majority of your living online and through words you can no more turn it off then a surgeon can operate outside the hospital this is your everything it’s your livelihood it’s how you support your family it’s who you are it’s your reputation it’s your selfworth so I had to try to make that more tangible more visceral for readers especially readers who are not writers and might dismiss it as oh yeah the internet’s mean get over it so the story unfolds from there that’s it starts there and then I start to back up with what led up to that and then we return Midway through the book to that scene my what I call my nightmare before Christmas and then we move forward again to what happened and the resolution yeah so for our listeners you know we started in media’s race right it’s the inciting incident but what what Natalie does is she puts us right there in the action then we kind of go back and we get context etc etc then we move forward so she’s chosen a very interesting structure and timeline in terms of the structure of the Memoir which we’re going to discuss in a little bit more detail but the thing that really stood out to me in terms of that personal Universal element is not that people had a problem with the way you used the the wine reviews just referencing the critics initials etc etc it’s the way they came for you did not allow you to kind of speak for yourself would not accept an explanation or an apology but then how very personal it became and how so many of these misogynistic comments that were made online were about your appearance were about your breasts were about your hair and you as a woman to the point that someone actually threatened to rape you if you did not shut up and I swear the rage that I feel at that because you know as we are three women who run a podcast we’ve had more than our fa share of these kinds of comments coming to us what the hell do we know we’re just stupid women we miss shut up etc etc but just that I think there are so many women listening right now who have experienced that at some point or another maybe they haven’t had this online Vital but certainly they’ve had men in their companies comment on their appearance and things like that in these ways that are just it’s infuriating it’s mindblowing in fact and this was only 10 years ago so can you take us through after you you wrote the Memoir I’m sure you must have heard from hundreds of women that could relate to that who were saying nly oh my God we may not be in the wine industry we may not be in this industry but boy can we relate to this kind of behavior absolutely I mean the the letters just kept flooding in like direct messages emails and so on and I mean that that has just been so gratifying I mean just but you know it they were so specific these emails and letters like you wrote my story you you wouldn’t believe it we I feel like you’re my sister and I found you know we’ve just reunited I don’t know I I think though that it has to go back to the feelings because the situational specifics are different and you know you’ve touched on it a few times Bianca women’s anger and fury I mean we are taught to be nice girls to smile to you know brighten up someone else’s day usually a man’s and we don’t talk enough about our anger with that we you know throughout this Memoir there’s also an ution of how I deal with my own anger you know all of that’s tied together The Witch theme the anger the fire the Scorn the fury because up till writing this book you know I’d always been I just was more of a humor writer than anything else I you know would make fun of the wine industry but in a lighthearted way I would play nice I’d play by the rules and so on and I had a lot of success with that I I treated my writing career like one gloriously long English class if I kept my head down and I did good work I get you know the a grade top marks and actually the world doesn’t work that way certainly the wine industry doesn’t and and many other writers did not feel that way so it was an Awakening for me and a whole process that I went through from always trying to be a a good girl and play by the rules to making light of even my own skills as a writer as a woman to at first feeling sad and impressed that all of this was happening and then to opening up to my own anger and saying hey this isn’t right and there are all of these well they were all men so as well just say that not people all these men are telling my story I’m a writer and I should be able to tell my own story I should be able to write this last chapter Amen to that so so we’re going to get to the witch structure because I love that and for the memoirists out there we have said you know Memoir should not be something that you approach going okay this is when I was born I’m taking the story in a linear way this is what happened when I was 20 this is what happened when I was 30 and this is where I currently am you know there are so many different ways to structure Memoir and the way Natalie pulled in The Witch theme I thought was absolute genius and I want to unack that some more but something you’ve just said is something I want to touch on so writing a memoir like this in which you defending yourself so much against the allegations that were made against you you know how are you able to do that how are you able to tell your truth without worrying about implicating people who might want to sue legal concerns Etc there are some names that you don’t mention the names you’re obscure in the names there are some men who you mention blatantly and obviously those were ones who made their comments in very public forums in which case you are able to quote them from those public forums for our listeners out there who are writing something similar how do you balance the truth telling against worrying about legal repercussions down the line for writing your truth so first up you can’t worry about it at all when you are writing your early drafts otherwise you’re trying to have your foot on the gas pedal and on the brake at the same time you won’t get it out there you you won’t get it down on paper is what I should say you have to let the story out first so that’s the first thing then as you get further down the road to more iterations of your drafts and it’s starting to take shape and you’ve had a developmental edit and you’ve had other edits and so on that’s the point at which you can start thinking about legal ramifications I should note Bianca that I had changed everybody’s name so not just family members but also all of these men who are commenting publicly about me and then you know even the crude things they were saying and so on and the lawyer went through the manuscript for the first time he said you know if you change their name you’re violating their copyright you know to quote them and their VI file things file things they said I had to use their full names so in the end I I didn’t want to name anybody like for my family it was like privacy but for the trolls it’s like let’s not shed more light on these trolls let’s not give them more attention that’s what they feed on but in the end I had to name them because I was quoting whether it was online or various sources I had to do that for copyright but I I also came to the conclusion in the end that they deserved full credit for what they said and did that can I just say the irony there in terms of the copyright and the irony is just oh love it carry on I know right so yeah writing this book was like the law school that I should have finished I actually dropped out of law school anyway so the next step that you always need to do is put in that sort of author’s note at the front of the book that is clear it’s not in the mice type of the copyright page but I I can share that with you if if that would be helpful to listeners okay so this is what I said because there’s two purposes for this one is that it’s a shot over the bow for frivolous claims you don’t want people coming after you with no basis you want them to know this has been reviewed by lawyers and the second part is that this actually would be used in my defense if anyone were to bring a suit which has not happened H anyway here it goes I wrote this book with positive intent for everyone in it even those involved in traumatic moments they’ve all made me who I am today as flawed as that remains some people’s names physical characteristics and Company affiliations have been changed for privacy otherwise this Memoir remains a true narrative the events and dialogue are based on my memories conversations journal entries emails texts online posts screenshots and recordings I asked family friends colleagues and several lawyers to review the manuscript the opinions in this Memoir are mine alone and intended only to share my experience I don’t represent any brand company or organization mentioned my story isn’t unusual but I hope my journey helps others who travel this way feel less alone I raise my glass to you so that’s that’s just putting it out there and upfront for the reasons that I mentioned you know shot over the bow for frivolous claims part of my defense should it arise that said that does not save you from being sued for defam invasion of privacy or copyright claims if you haven’t used copyright correctly in your book that’s not like a a you know get out of jail card that author’s note you still need to be very careful in how you talk about others and so when I bring others into my story I only bring them in to the extent that they overlap with my story I go no further even though many times I wanted to with other details that really didn’t tell my story or with characterizations that would be might be considered defamatory I had to stick to the facts but in the end sticking to the facts was far more powerful it got rid of all of the fluffy you know it got down to the the muscle and bones of the story without all the fat and so in the end it was a good thing that I had to work with these restrictions that also benefited me legally yeah just see see this is why I can’t write a memoir because I would write so and so who everybody agrees is a ginormous said this and this you know so so I would I would really get sued back to the lawyer stuff so Natalie I know when I sign my contracts with my Publishers even though I’m writing fiction there’s always a clause that says that if I get sued that’s my problem pretty much it’s not the Publishers problem they are not settling lawsuits on my behalf so when it came to the lawyers hair with these at your cost were you lucky enough to know lawyers that did this for you for free so this is all stuff that you had to do contractually yourself before this book could get published could you take us through that sure so in the contract with my publisher they said the wording was such that if the publisher feels the need for a legal edit that they would get one done and pay for it but they didn’t feel the need even though this book centered on a iy of legal issues and was such a personal book that involved you know both my ex-husband and all of these writers online you know you just think that’s a cauldron bubbling cauldron waiting for a lawyer to to put out the fire they decided that it wasn’t necessary because ultimately as you said Bianca I’m on the hook not them you are indemnifying them you’re responsible for their legal fees and any damage dages in a suit so that can just take the wind right out of your Sals out of your lungs so I I knew for my own peace of mind I could not publish this unless I had not just one legal read but two so sort of as the manuscript was evolving to the point where I thought you know this is close to publication to a final read of the final manuscript and it was expensive you know we’re talking like $5,000 a read yeah and and can I just ask what kind of loyal because this is obviously very specialized this is not just you know your your cousin who’s a lawyer down the road like what kind of lawyers are we talking about here those who specialize either in entertainment law but even more specifically than that I went with a lawyer who specialized in the publishing world he he was a lawyer in the publishing world who only reads book manuscripts for three things copyright defamation and invasion of privacy and I’d highly recommend him if anyone wants to get in touch after the show feel free to reach out to me it was worth all the money because it was it was peace of mind but also I learned a lot like you know going through his comments going through the manuscript made the manuscript better my editor at the publisher was afraid that the lawyers were going to ruin it they were going to take all the juicy bits out neuter the whole manuscript but in the end I think it made it stronger for the reasons we’ve discussed but also it it really made me weigh every word and you need to do that in any book you need to be right in there in the detail in the minutia as as much as we do a line edit we need to do this sort of legal edit when we’re dealing with issues like this and especially in Memoir because you have to say am I really behind that sentence it might feel good to say it and I want to say it but am I willing to defend it in court and I know that sounds like a really CAU way to write but you’re not writing that way the writing is largely done now you’re in the editing mode and you’re every sentence has to pass that test yeah and while are we talking about the writing you know we’ve we focused so much during this interview on the legal implications because this is something we get a ton of questions on the podcast and you were the perfect person to to ask about this but I do want our listeners to know that wine witch on fire is beautifully written it is excellent on the sentence level it evokes emotion it evokes anger it gets you on board with you know Natalie as the protagonist I like to talk about Memoir as as a protagonist rather than saying getting on board with you Natalie per se it was just the writing was wonderful so let’s talk a bit about that now as well because what I want to pick your brain about as well is the Witch theme and how you use that to your benefit in terms of the structure of the novel we’ve got section names we’ve got chapter names that which theme is stitched carefully through the entire thing and you know the book begins with a mob who’s coming for Natalie now back 400 years ago this mob would have been a mob of men with pitch folks coming to Natalie’s house to burn it down in this day and age it’s a mob of men who are coming on social media on Twitter on blog posts Etc so was it from the beginning that you saw that Witch theme and you wanted to sort of use it as as a hook as a theme throughout I know you say when you appear on the Canadian show the social you decide to start dressing as a wine witch for that Halloween special is that when it came in take us a bit through the intentionality of choosing that theme sure so I always say you might think from the title wine witch on fire this is about an angry woman who drinks a lot of wine and owns a lot of cats but it’s not and I would read that Memoir I just want anyone out there to know I would read out of that Memoir but anyway carry on that so witches resonate with me because their strength comes from within not from external validation it’s a real release you know my favorite childhood stories were always about witches so the good and the bad Wizard of Oz you know the battling Duo of Glinda the Good Witch and the Wicked Witch of the West who’s always goes unnamed but I was entranced with those opposing forces that I saw in myself you know I even love the straight up badass White Witch of Narnia you know I I was cackling alongside her when she canceled Christmas and froze Narnia it was a very satisfying outlet for you know a little goody Miss Tes of course you know I’ve come around since then to realize that certain stereotypes of women can be damaging including the word witch and that’s why I hesitated use it one of many reasons I hesitated using the word wit in the title and as a theme throughout the book but now you know I I believe a witch is a wise woman who’s been through the fire of Life come out on the other end stronger wiser fiercer so I had to get over my Notions of what a witch was first but then you know when did I start thinking about this for the book so during the online mobbing there were lots of comments about pitchforks and witch hunts and so on but I couldn’t even remember those comments until years later when I went back through the posts and the screenshots and at first I was very wary of the metaphor because I did not want to equate my experience with the horrors that women faced in the 17th and 18th centuries but you know over time their stories really did rekindle with me a desire to call out sexism and misogyny in a in a modern sense and you know the methods are more subtle I think today but the results can feel as devastating so during my no good terrible very bad vintage I did feel like a witch in all the worst ways you know Outcast despised scorned hunted and even the stories of so-called Witch is like in literature inspired me you know I was thinking back to all of these stories that I loved as a child you know Hester prin was forced to wear The Scarlet Letter A on her chest and she embroidered it ornately with gold thread and I think made something creative out of her shame and she transformed that Badge of humiliation into her own emblem of individuality her way of taking back the story so all of these themes were bubbling in in my own cauldron and I think for many of us today you know on online can be so amorphous like what is it but Google search algorithm is our modern Scarlet Letter A especially for women if there’s anything negative about you online it’ll be on the first page of results regardless of when it happened or whether it’s been fact checked doesn’t matter and we all wear that a on our virtual chest so in the end I I really came around to you know weaving this thread of the witch through the story the old metaphor to illuminate a new story and then also to turn it around and to see those old stories about women as witches in a new light so that’s the sort of overview but you know carrying through the metaphor through the book is another thing is that something that comes with layering so for example what I do when I am writing I’ll focus on one note of my character let’s say their misbelief that they are unlovable and I’ll focus on that for a lot of time and then there’ll be something else about their character like for example they feel very insecure about their body image and I’m not able to generally write those two notes at the same time but when I come back with editing I’ll be like look out for where the body dysmorphia or the you know self-image is a problem and where you can factor that in and so I’m able to weave that in during the editorial process later on so is that something that you will also very conscious of when editing saying oh wow I didn’t see this the first time around but this is something that really can be compared to X Y and Z when it comes to witches exactly so I had a stockpile of little witch stories and then when you have those sort of in the back of your mind they become readily apparent as you’re reading your manuscript for the 998th time where they might fit without being heavy-handed without milking the metaphor you know so once I decided to go with the witch theme I really had to go all in otherwise it would come off as superficial or disrespectful to the women who were persecuted so it was this balance of okay you need to go deep but you can’t overdo it and so it’s that fine fine line so you know leaning into that metaphor was I think more fruitful for the writing itself it was a way of showing not telling so for example when I started responding to the comments the defamatory comments and others online I would get flaming responses from the trolls and then when I backed off and didn’t post they’d accused me of running away from the issue so that reminded me of the story of the one way to tell if a woman was a witch in colonial Salem was to strip her down to her undergarments bind her and throw her into a lake since witches rejected the sacrament of baptism the water would reject her and make her float an innocent person would sink to the bottom according to this logic so you’d either sink and drown or float and get dragged to the steak and be burned damned if you do damned if you don’t sounds like the Forerunner to social media so trying to weave the two of them together like that but I had like so the story like I had a file of stories of all of these things about witches and you know when I started going back to the passage of I can’t win here I’m trying to respond and then when I think that that’s just fueling their fire I don’t respond GH I can’t win that way either so you weave in these small Snippets that are firmly rooted in the metaphor they serve kind of as a touch point for the reader that shows up in new and interesting ways I think through the manuscript but they also allow me to share more satisfying Reflections as well as the vulnerability and surprise and and fear yeah you did that so incredibly well and there was so many moments where I was like you know there are times that it feels like we’ve come so far and there’s times that it feels like we haven’t even taken that first step when you compare like the modern day context to things that you comparing happened to however many years ago it’s you know and and that was the Touchstone for me each time we brought it back brought it back brought it back and it it was not overdone it was not heavy-handed it was just perfect I loved as well the chapter heading so for our listeners Natalie went between sort of witch themed chapter headings and also wine themed so we have things like game of Crohn’s a marriage of true Vines good witch hunting Tempest in a wine glass so so really really creative and interesting there as well Natalie we passed our time I have so many other questions but unfortunately we are not going to get to them can you tell our listeners where they can find you tell them about your newsletter tell them a bit more about where all you are thank you Bianca so you can find me at Natalie ml.com that’s easy to misspell so if you want to try wine witch onf fire.com you’ll find everything about the book and that just redirects to my website for listeners who might also be interested in how I put together a book club guide with not only discussion questions about the book but also tips on organizing your own informal wine tasting I have interesting themes there from sort of a gathering of your your own personal coven to the perfect wine tasting for a divorce party you can go to Wine witch onf fire.com SLU so feel free to borrow whatever is helpful there as you mentioned Bianca I also host the podcast unreserved wine talk and I really try to interview people who are weird and wonderful in the world of wine and can tell stories we’re not comparing Hungarian to American oak or anything like that my newsletter is at Natalie ml.com I have free mobile apps that will scan the barcodes front labels of bottles and bring up my wine reviews you can find it all there at either Natalie ml.com or wine witch onf fire.com amazing Natalie thank you and Natalie does have two other books up before this one can you quickly tell our listeners about those sure these are far more lightheaded lightheaded well they are lightheaded and lighthearted the first is red white and drunk all over a wine soak Journey from grape to glass as you can see I do put the entire book in the title and subtitle and the second one is unquenchable a Tipsy search for the world’s best bargain wines so there are just adventure stories I work in Day in the Life as a suier so that you know how to order from a restaurant list I work the Harvest so you know wine is made they’re all based on story so that you can learn about wine in a more fun entertaining way amazing we’re going to link to all of these on our bookshop.org affiliate page remember if you buy the books there you support an independent bookstore and you support the podcast Natalie thank you so so much it’s been such a pleasure chatting with you Bianca thank you thank you for inviting me here to share this story but also thank you again for what you do for the the literary Community this podcast is at the top of my playlist I love the discussion the tips I get every week thank you for continuing to do [Music] that I hope you also enjoyed this bonus chat with Bianca in the show notes you’ll find the full transcript of my conversations with both Bianca and Mark links to their websites books and podcast and the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live and where you can order my book online no matter where you live I can find you or the book can I should say that’s just creepy you can also find a link to take the free online food and wine pairing class with me called the five wine and food pairing mistakes that can ruin your dinner and how to fix them forever at Nataly ml.com class that’s all in the show notes at Nataly ml.com 287 email me if you have a sip tip question or would like to win one of three copies of Mark’s terrific book Italy in a wine glass I’d love to hear from you if you’ve read my book or are in the process of reading it at Nataly atal ml.com if you missed episode 183 go back and take a listen I chat with Stevie Kim about Italian wines and the world’s largest wine Fair Vin Italy I’ll share a short clip with you now to wet your appetite Italian wine is just like the Italians they’re incredibly Crea ctive and imaginative and it’s not by chance that they excel in cuisine in fashion in design Gucci Versi cars yeah they’re completely individualistic and fragmented is that a history of Kingdoms I don’t know but Italians are incredibly individualistic so that means that you have so many denomination and so many different grapes so we’re talking about 600 odd grapes and 400 plus denominations denominations meaning little regions or designations within yeah so that is very difficult to wrap your head around when you are a wine lover and that’s one of the reasons we’ve been making small booklets to make it a little bit more digestible and [Music] approachable you won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Mar if you lik this episode or learned even one thing from it please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about Italy and its wines it’s easy to find my podcast just tell them to search for Natalie mlan wine on their favorite podcast app or they can listen to the show on my website thank you for taking the time to join me here I hope something great is in your glass this week perhaps a wine from C that you’ve discovered [Music] recently you don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast especially the secret fullbody bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media so subscribe for free now at Natalie ml.com SLS subscribe meet me here next week cheers