Do we need a definition of fine wine these days? Let’s explore and react to an article by Simon Woolf investigating the concept of fine and luxury wine.
✍️ Simon’s article: https://themorningclaret.com/p/fine-wine-isnt-wine-its-just-commerce
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24 Comments
I get that part about not sharing certain bottles and reserving them for the “right people”. I’m relatively new to wine, but have been super into bourbon and whisky for years. I have certain “unicorn” bottles that I reserve for people who “get it”. They would be lost on the noobs. Nothing wrong with that.
Good episode. For me, fine wine means a wine that is made with passion, knowledge and craftmanship and that is worth to talk about.
It's not just wine where you find this, either. I'll bring over some really fantastic craft beer to my relatives place, and my niece's husband will only drink Coors because that's his beer. More for the rest of us…
1: Is it a wine?
2: Is it well made, does it have any faults?
3: Do YOU like it — alone or with food?
4: Can you afford it?
5. Was it worth it?
The rest is a bonus, your experience, your knowledge, your feelings, your enjoyment: what you yourself put into it (not literally, of course).
I totaly agree with you.
I would distinguish between non-luxury wine and luxury wine (but using it like ,,I buy this wine as a status symbol which marks me as a person with high social status'').
But ,,fine wine'' … I think thats just for gatekeeping.
I agree with you on the diminishing returns applied to wine. And the $50 cutoff is probably about right. I have found that the most expensive wines disappoint me most often. I think it’s because that high price raises my expectation so much.
I agree that the threshold sits around the €50/$50. I will not buy wines more expensive than that because the price/quality ratio simply start going the wrong way (only exception I do occasionally is in a restaurant). There is simply no point, you just pay for the name and the high demand for that particular wine. Money out the window.
Wine still has the face of being for the rich. Yeah, there are crap wines that were created to fulfill a certain nitch mainly for those who just want to get drunk but real wine does stand out. Companies pay millions of dollars in marketing and they create platform or tiers where they push their products to different markets. If I could sell the same product with a different label and market it towards a richer crowd for that same product, why not. Caveat emptor, let the buyer beware.
I totally agree with your direction of travel in this video. If I visit a supermarket and look at the wine shelves there might be a section called 'Fine Wine.' The only criteria for inclusion is the price. I suppose once upon a time (here in the U.K anyway) wine drinkers fell in to a couple of different categories and it was very much class based. Most people, if they enjoyed wine at all, bought their wine from local shops and the choice was extremely limited and usually not particularly good. Beer and cider were the ancient drinks of my country.
If, however, you were privately educated and went to an elite university (the definition of the elite not so long ago) there would be a good chance that part of your cultural education would be wine appreciation. You were probably bought up in a household where drinking quality wine was not unusual because your wealthy parents enjoyed it and purchased their wine (almost certainly the best Bordeaux) from well established wine importers like London based Berry Bros & Rudd who started trading in 1698. The type of person that did business with companies like this represented way less than 1% of the population. You had to have a lot of money backed up with cultural enrichment. Their families would have holidays in the Loire Valley just to visit the wine Chateaus. A little dabbling with Italian Chianti on journeys to Florence and Rome but that was a sideshow to French wine. All other countries produced swill for the masses.
Swill for the masses and our superb wine (and we know about vintages too, unlike the common drinking plebs who ought to stick with beer). I'm absolutely serious. This was the history of wine consumption in the U.K. It's probably not that dissimilar in other countries. In order to differentiate wine appreciation and social class we had to invent a term like 'Fine Wine.' The sort of wine that only people with money and good taste have access too. "We don't want the working class poking its nose in it" – Basil Fawlty.
The wine industry has been transformed in the past 40 years. Good wine is available to all as it should be. A big shout out to you Matt because these blind tastings tell us a thing or two about value. A few years ago my wife and I were having an inexpensive outdoor evening meal in plaza of the historic town of Trujillo in Extremadura, Spain. The restaurant only stocked Extremadura wines which don't carry any reputation of note. I watched families buying the local wines for $7 to $15 euros a bottle to go with their delicious local food and enjoying every drop. That was an eye opener. Wine should be enjoyed by all and not just the elitist snobs I mention above. The term 'Fine Wine' belongs in the dustbin. WT
Ok. First, great video and a highly individual subject. But, for me a “fine” wine is what it is supposed to be AND puts a pin in my memory. I can still taste the 2009 Brunello I had sitting across from my wife at a birthday dinner in Tuscany in 2019. In fact I came home and bought a case. It was supposed to be a representation of a unique night, of its terroir and Tuscany. It was as. But then again for my daughter’s 25th birthday she wanted a homemade chocolate cake my wife makes and we had a delicious brachetto d’acqui that was supposed to be playful and not too serious and it made her eyes sparkle when she tried it. That’s a fine wine too. But, I think luxury wines are defined by the individual. If you believe the price is reasonable for what you are buying, then maybe it’s not a luxury. If buying a bottle of wine consumes an hour of my income, is that a luxury? If you’re Bill Gates, that makes Petrus or even a DRC your daily drinker. The opposite is true to, that $15 bottle of rose can be out of reach for many. All in all, IMHO, this is personal budget, taste and choice for luxury wines and those definitions you shared still feel a little off-putting. That said, there is always someone who’ll look at your purchase of just about anything and they share how shocked they are you spent money on it. So, buy what you want, enjoy it and the naysayers can all go suck cork. 😁😎
trophy wine. I like it 😉
My immediate family is pretty basic when it comes to wine. They tend to like the sugary "soda pop" wines. Expanding their horizons isn't easy when they have such a sweet tooth. My definition of sweet is way different than their's (ie- pancake syrup)
Which is why I am thankful of NZ. We are so isolated here in South Island, most wines are only available within Aus/NZ. All wineries feel local, and prices arent too steep for how much hand and care goes into making these. I am so grateful.
Really appreciated this video discussion Matt. I read Simon’s article when it came out, right on. Saying it’s super segmented in terms of what folks are looking for is an understatement! Like you, I think about the audience when picking a wine to bring or if asked to choose at a resto. I know my Napa Cab loving friends aren’t going to like the Ribera Sacra Mencia or Lopez de Heredia G Reserva Rosado I choose.
Wow, your videos keep getting better and better … Well Done! Thank you 🍷
There was a lot of food for thought to unpack from this short video. Some of those definitions of fine or luxury wine are just corporate marketing copy, for lack of a better word. This is a very nuanced and complicated topic, cause as you mentioned there are some wines that I have or will only share with people that I know will appreciate or enjoy certain styles, regions or bottles.
Does that make me elitist and snobby? I don't think so, I am generous and generally serve wine when friends or family come over, but if some people can't appreciate it, why would I want to open it when it won't be valued? It was quite a few years ago when a fellow wine nut/collector told me and my wife, "You drink the best bottles by yourself, you don't share them with others". And yes, if you don't count fellow wine enthusiasts, collectors or wine makers in your social circle; keep them for yourself.
I do like to share more unusual and off the beaten track wines to take people out of their comfort zone and give them unique experiences, but if some people "know what they like and like what they know", let them stay there. Fine wine is the next bottle, half case or case of honest wine you find, buy and drink made by wine makers trying their best with what nature has endowed them with and charging a fair price for their efforts.
Fine/luxury wine is just that, trophy wine, show off wine or bling bling wine🤣. If the wine industry wants to survive and thrive in the 21st century and continue to sell wines to customers, then this whole elitist, gate-keeper snobbery has to go. Sorry for the rant, but this was a great video and good insight for all of us. Keep up the good work, Matthew. Cheers!
Good topic. I do consider who I am going to share bottles over $100 with as some people just aren’t as geeky about the nuances as I am. However I believe many Napa wines are just so ridiculously overpriced now so I couldn’t care less about buying them anymore. It’s become a prestige thing. The pleasure comes from finding the small producers making fantastic wine!
Had a 1982 Lafite in 1994 and it was almost undrinkable!! The tannins were so fierce that all of us were struggling to talk! Not sure it is great to drink at “every” stage of its development?
Good one M. Its just wine, in all its amazing ways. We sell the dream, we buy into levels of prestige and luxury. What evs!! Wine us a pleasure lets keep it simple 🙂
Yup. Trophy or status wines. Id love a more expensive wine but may never get to appreciate them. Sad really
To me, fine wine is a wine I can not stop drinking once I taste it, it's a wine I could finish a bottle on my own, over the corse of a few hours, very rarely happens though.
It's a wine I could never not share it with fellow winelovers once I trust it's of the highest quality. That being said, there are few wines that have made me felt like that. Last year, I would distinguish Sette Ponti Soleno supertuscan, Heitz Cellars Cab Sauv, Chateau le Gay Pomerol, Gran Enemigo Cab Franc, and a few whites from Greece.
Scarcity and price would also be an element but not always. I have had a few Burgundy 1er Crus and Grand Crus that have disappointed me, and other less known ones that were mindblowing. Who knows what will be next? The older I grow, the more experienced I get, and I can tell the taste has changed significantly over the course of the last 10-12 years I really am into wines.
I've said this before, but I'll say it again here….
If you think it's great wine, then it is great wine. No matter how much or how little it costs, no matter how rare or how common it may be. However…
Please remember that, at rock bottom, it's still fermented grape juice. Nothing more, nothing less.
Keep up the great work! My 2 cents. For me good wine is viticulturally serious wine. And great wine is wine that manages to reconcile normally unreconcilable aesthetic qualities. Fine wine I mostly just call expensive wine.
I bet your friends likely would have preferred the Penfolds Cab Sauv/Shiraz blend that is 10€ and honestly, it's a great quality wine for the money that has a wide appeal and will make a lot of people happy.
There's definitely a time and a place for special bottles and when you want to make casual wine drinkers happy, just get an entry-level champagne. There's a reason it has been such a popular gift. You can't miss if you bring it to a gathering or party.