Dive into the unfined and unfiltered world of natural wines. Cheryl Stanley, global wine expert and senior lecturer at the Cornell Nolan School of Hotel Administration, joins host Chris Wofford to explore the scrubbing bubbles, oxidized apples and sediment in a variety of wines, from pétillant naturel to orange to Beaujolais.
This debut episode of the Cornell Keynotes podcast covers a range of topics, including:
• Definitions of natural wines
• Evolving consumer tastes
• Fermentation types
• Economics of producing natural wines
• Skin contact and maceration
• Natural wines from specific regions of the world
Learn more in Cheryl Stanley’s eCornell (https://ecornell.cornell.edu/?utm_source=keynotespodcast&utm_medium=notes&utm_campaign=episode01) certificate programs:
• Wines of Germany and Austria (https://ecornell.cornell.edu/certificates/hospitality-and-foodservice-management/wines-of-germany-and-austria/?utm_source=keynotespodcast&utm_medium=notes&utm_campaign=episode01)
• Wines of the World (https://ecornell.cornell.edu/certificates/hospitality-and-foodservice-management/wines-of-the-world/?utm_source=keynotespodcast&utm_medium=notes&utm_campaign=episode01)
• Wines of Spain and Portugal (https://ecornell.cornell.edu/certificates/hospitality-and-foodservice-management/wines-of-spain-and-portugal/?utm_source=keynotespodcast&utm_medium=notes&utm_campaign=episode01)
• Wines of the Southern Hemisphere (https://ecornell.cornell.edu/certificates/hospitality-and-foodservice-management/wines-of-the-southern-hemisphere/?utm_source=keynotespodcast&utm_medium=notes&utm_campaign=episode01)
• Wines of Italy (https://ecornell.cornell.edu/certificates/hospitality-and-foodservice-management/wines-of-italy/?utm_source=keynotespodcast&utm_medium=notes&utm_campaign=episode01)
• Wines of France (https://ecornell.cornell.edu/certificates/hospitality-and-foodservice-management/wines-of-france/?utm_source=keynotespodcast&utm_medium=notes&utm_campaign=episode01)
• Wines of California, the Pacific Northwest, and New York (https://ecornell.cornell.edu/certificates/hospitality-and-foodservice-management/wines-of-california-the-pacific-northwest-and-new-york/?utm_source=keynotespodcast&utm_medium=notes&utm_campaign=episode01)
Did you enjoy this episode of the Cornell Keynotes podcast? Watch the full Keynote. (https://ecornell.cornell.edu/keynotes/overview/K042823/?utm_source=keynotespodcast&utm_medium=notes&utm_campaign=episode01)
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Welcome everyone today we’re going to be popping some Corks And talking about natural wines I’m Chris wford I’m Cheryl Stanley Cheryl Stanley is a lecturer at the Nolan School of Hotel Administration she’s also course author of several online courses on wine that we will be talking
About later as we get into it so natural wines is the topic today Cheryl why are they trending what’s going on out there oh my gosh Chris wow well they’re unique they’re different they create
An experience whether it’s good or bad that’s all in the eye of the person enjoying the wines and I think it’s as as people discover and and go begin their wine Journey they’re curious and they want
To try so many different wines and these natural wines and I use air quotes these natural wines are an extension of that Curiosity what is natural wine tough to Define oh yes I had to write some notes down because I needed to to stay on topic because natural wines is a huge conversation
In the wine industry right now because all wine is natural right wine was not is not created by humans we certainly there is human contact but it is a natural product created by Mother Nature and
Dr Patrick McGovern from upen did an amazing wrote an amazing book all about the history of wine and natural product but I like to I want to actually read the Oxford companion of wines definition of natural wine because that is really like one of the wine Bibles of the wine World grapes
Are typically grown by smallscale Independent Producers grapes are handpicked from sustainable organic or biodynamic Vineyard so going into the farming practices wine is fermented with no added yeast I.E native yeast no additives are included in fermentation such as NE yeast
Nutrients and little to no sulfites are added and it’s interesting because when I started learning about natural wines it was just no sulfur added that was what was considered a natural wine and now there’s so much more that kind of get grouped into this natural wine category and just to back
Up real quick so what do sulfites do for wine sulfites are an antimicrobial uh so they will kill off any unwanted bacteria and they can be added at different times during the wine making process so it could be added in the very beginning when when the grapes are coming in to kill any
Yeast that’s on the outside of the grap skins or it could be added during the fer fermentation process further along in the method of production it could also stop fermentation leaving residual sugar what about the variability of those native yeasts that’s a that’s a that’s a big variable
Potentially well potentially yes because some native yeast can’t handle higher alcohol so they you know die off at 5% and then you have what is oftentimes considered stuck fermentation when we think about styles of of natural wine one of these Styles is glue glue kind of sounds like glug glug
Out of the bottle and those are specifically low alcohol wines traditionally red now they’re white Rosé orange color of the rainbow kind of thing but they’re they’re lower alcohol wines and so you know and this is where it gets into human human intervention and wine maker intervention
In the wine making process traditionally people say or talk about more commercially made wines a wine maker might add certain yeast strains whereas these native yeasts would be just o natural or even what’s in the winery within the winery that can can take part in just in the air that you
Breathe what else about process and production is involved labor intensivity I’m thinking about cost of operation you know if you’ve got a relative hands hands-off approach you would think this is economical to produce or is it the opposite is it a little more challenging because of that I think
It depends no black or white answer got it with hand harvesting that definitely is labor intensive and where you are in the world will increase that if you take if you are a natural wine producer and you take the hands off no intervention even in the vineyard that can cause challenges
Because say for example you get mold now with sustainable practices Organics and biodynamic farming techniques which have very strict rules and not sustainable but organic and biodynamic have very strict uh farming techniques that can the wine maker has some options to use if they
Follow those that’s right biodynamics very labor intensive there’s a whole process with the you know microbial management is is its own thing just alone yes it is very labor intensive and it takes a lot of knowledge in order to do it correctly also documentation too great let’s talk about
Styles uh let’s talk about output we’re doing a tasting today we’ve got five different wines a little bit all over the place but in in the best way let’s talk about broadly for the uninitiated
How do we think about the styles of natural wine sure well and this is what’s fun but also can be challenging for a consumer is since there is no government definition what is a natural wine and
We we already talked about that but W the wine spirits education trust refer natural wine as an ethos you know from the wine maker but now we’re looking in the market even subcategories those low alcohol you know often times referred to as juicy wines that you can drink easily they’re not high
Tannin usually high acid and and oftentimes made using Carbonic mation and then you have the orange skin contact SL Amber and that’s where too where you are in the world will you know a wine maker
Will use a certain term over another orange wine here in the United States we know that that has been skin contact it might just say skin contact on the label it might say ramato for Italy and
You know all of that knowing or Amber we have to think about Amber too having the juice sit on the Skins extracting color and then we also have pet nets and that’s going to be really fun cuz we’re
Trying two different pet Nat P natural what is that about so that is the ancestral method and the ancestral method has been around for hundreds of years production of champagne bubbles what’s bubbles bubbles it’s bottling the wine while it’s going through fermentation and some producers will
Discour that yeast at the end others will not so that’s why sometimes you’ll get some funky chunkies uh down in the bottom of the bottle yeah prices uh a little bit pricey so you’ll see as we
Go through each of these wines once we dig in the cost of these These are at minimal $25 a bottle or thereabouts and I’d asked you is is there any opportunity for bargain wine everyday chuggers and
The answer was sort of sort of very I should say more challenging to find that in the market I’ve seen a couple for $12 but very very few if you’re in Europe of course the pricing will be different
Even here in the United States different states have different tax laws so you can find various price points but exactly as you encountered at the seller door you’re talking $25 and up you know even $100 and really it’s it’s supply and demand there is a high demand for these wines
Especially at you know wine bars or I mean you go to restaurants and it’s we only serve natural wines a very curated list and because of that you’ll find some that are over 100 what do you
Think about digging into some of these let’s go through in sequence sure and do some tasting so we have wine number one is the shim deak how’s my pronunciation there yeah yeah okay not bad well
And this wine is is fun well just look looking at the glasses themselves and this is when for for those of you who are going to be uh trying these wines at another time or tasting them along with
Us you see we’re so used to that brilliant color of wine where it’s super reflective you have the blind tasting standards you know Star Bright M these are not Star Bright no these you can’t see completely through any of these right and this is where as a consumer it can be challenging because
If you don’t know that this is in that natural wine category you pick up the bottle and you’re like something’s wrong here something’s going on but this is just a stylistic preference of the the winery and this is this is fun this wine is specifically from the ladok ruso area
What kind of grapes are in this vion and rouson I believe from the importer’s website and again bottled during fermentation but often times you’ll see with petn Nats that they’re not cork closed they’re actually closed with a crown cap Crown caps are they recyclable no are they
Sustainable not as much you know but a cork might not necessarily be able to handle okay I was going I was going to say it’s about right efficacy and working exactly keeping the wine in the bottle
Exactly and keeping the bubbles I mean when you’re buying a petnet you want a wine with bubbles which is going to give you texture as well as you have some texture from the unfin unfiltered all right
Let’s give this one A Taste let me let me know you think well it’s it’s fun cuz when we opened up the initial bottle the bubbles were present but they weren’t out out of control and you’ll
See this if you drink a lot of petn nats that the bubble situation can vary based off of the amount of sugar in the wine the method of production discoring and whatnot okay well Cheers Cheers
Cherl okay color and having it be unfiltered aside I get some kind of apple skin there is oxidized Apple a little bit yes but also you get some Peach and floral notes you know knowing vion and rouson
VI being a very aromatic grape variety not getting as much of that intense white flour as I would assume from other wines but that’s okay how would you talk about the acidity in this wine how would
You describe it I would say acidity is medium but it has Scrubbing Bubbles and with that carbon dioxide the carbon dioxide cleanses your palette this wine would be a really fun wine to pair
With food and you can up the intensity of the food because this wine has a lot of texture you like it I I I like it quite a bit the oxidized apples is thing that’s really just sticking with me that’s
Exactly what it is yeah but okay some people think I’m a little weird with my apples but it’s not Granny Smith it’s not green apple it is and it’s not necessarily even red delicious it’s more of
Like a Gala honey crisp Hine there is a ripeness to fruit and but that makes complete sense from the growing region uh too but this wine and this is where you know you think about the different uh certification bodies like Court of Master Soma or wine spirits education trust and you’re blind
Tasting wine you’re evaluating the site and you’re also saying does it smell clean does it smell faulty and some natural wine producers tend to lean towards the what is perceived in the mass wine world as false but them it’s not a fault it adds character to their wine and this wine
I think is fairly clean you’re getting that fruit to it okay this sounds again you know is wild you know when I go when I taste wine sometimes it has a little bit of um strawberry Shore cake plastic
Doll note to it I know the doll but then like harabo candies but the wine is dry the aromatics are so ripe and I think the carbon dioxide and the wine is also allowing those aromatics to come out
Without having to give it a big swirl it’s lovely really enjoyable so you know at first blush what would you pair with this a bean stew oh there you go yeah yeah I you know something with a little
Bit of of hardiness to it but not overpowering right and they’re not going to fight each other no that’s ultimately what we’re talking about they’re going to complement between the bodies and the the sparkling the carbon dioxide in the wine I think it would just it would be really good
All right let’s keep things brisk okay let’s hit number two the second wine is called Mai sparkling horses Cabernet Fran um cab fran did not make our list for recommended bottles that people should buy but nevertheless seller door said you must try this because it fits the bill and
It would be really interesting well and I think it’s another wonderful expression of a petnat so this petnat was cloudy whereas this petnat is not it’s a beautiful Rosé exactly and it’s it’s that wonderful kind of dark salmon color and one thing I’d like to make not note are the bubbles the
Bubbles are much higher there’s much more carbon dioxide in this wine yep and what’s fun too about Rosé petn Nats you know you just see between these two wines various Spectrum a various spectrum of Cloudy to clear and Brilliant and pet NAD is more in reference to the method of production
This looks like a sparkling Rosé M exactly and it smells like one too it has that bright juicy red cherry and strawberry and something that’s different or makes these wines unique is you’re not looking for that secondary F Well you have some secondary fermentation in the bottle but it’s
Not like a traditional method wine like champagne or Cava where you have that yeasty development here you don’t have that yeastiness it’s not as pronounced that Brios cracker like note that you would find in the wines bubbles still hanging out yeah yeah so exactly serious action going on
There and so is a wine too something to consider when you’re buying petn Nats is supply chain and keeping it cold throughout the supply chain they ship it cold and sometimes it’ll even say that on
The bottle is to make sure that you keep it cold don’t put it in your cell don’t let it warm up to room temperature you get it home you put it in the fridge there you go really good advice
Smart advice I wouldn’t have known to do that so with your pet nets keep them in the fridge M right out of the case when you bring it home this one’s lovely too we we’re locking out it is this is a
Pretty good taste so far well and you think about Cabernet Fran as a great variety it yeah and it’s so perfect in the fingerlakes one of our signature red grape varieties and same thing with from Long
Island as well you get a little bit of texture and tannin from this wine so you got bubbles but you also have Tann in so you can do some really fun like S as we’re approaching summer barbecue with
This wine would be beautiful some nice grilled chicken nothing too spicy unless you really want want to but I don’t do spice much okay but that’s why I just think it’s it’s really it’s really enjoyable just to reiterate this is from the North Fork of Long Island right so this is a temperate
Oceanic type area that’s very much different from here you know we’re several 100 feet higher up in the woods yes but they have a longer growing season down on Long Island so that’s why you see more Cabernet sool Mero and Cabernet Franc being grown there because of those extended
Growing days perfect lovely wine moving right along yes what’s next on our list okay so this is the Christian binner Aeros de Rafael Puro what are we getting into here look at this color yeah look at the color and and we were talking a little bit about this beforehand where would a restaurant
Tour put this on the wine list is this a white wine yeah is it a rosé it’s really in the orange wine category and what some restaurant tours have done is kind of group these with roses because if
A guest ordered this and wasn’t familiar with the wine and were expecting a white wine they would look at it and be like no this looks like red grapefruit juice right exactly exactly but we also noticed that it is very cloudy uh this wine is also unfined unfiltered and looking at
The wine it’s Pino gree reasing and silvaner so great varieties that we so much associate with white wines now Pino gree is a great variety that does like to mutate and you will find Peno grees
Around the world that have a pinkish reddish hued skin and so this wine has done 25 days of skin contact and that’s where we’re getting the color from but then also aged on leaves for eight months
And aging on leaves for eight months is not crazy we see soan blancs and Muses from the L Valley being aged on leaves for that long as well so the the differentiator in this wine is really the skin
Contact for 25 days this is the wine that was supposed to line up with the pinio ramato right the Italian I just had that fairly recently last year was the first time I kind of had those those
Pinos that are a little off orange and they’re just delicious and isn’t it fun because they add texture yes because often and I don’t want to say there are some Peno greos in the market that taste like water yes they have no character and with that rato it just UPS the character a
Little bit to make it really like o wait what’s going on in this one and beautiful with fish this one’s got a heck of a nose Peach skin yeah I mean dry Peach skin orange peel and I think what’s so
Important to note on the palette is the texture of this wine yep not very acidic not very biting it doesn’t really hit you too hard it’s laying off actually quite a bit but it has the and it’s
What’s funny is the acidity is kind of competing against that tannin you’re getting from the grap skins and often times people say oh well white wines don’t have Tan in they can in this case
And I mean of course they can get it from from wood tannin as well you think about drinking a rosé a rosé has that texture in tannin and this is just a white wine that has texture in tannin
Did we talk about where this is from in France do we know oh this wine is from all sauce okay so there we go mountainous Eastern France yes Eastern France longer growing season dryer area so you the
Fruit can get really right here but still maintain their acidity because of the northernly climate so other wines that we might associate with Al sauce would be Peno Blanc is grown up there reings Peno Blanc reings GT sters always fan favorites I love cantal sauce which is a sparkling wine made in the
Traditional method delicious right on the money yeah and this is fun because it’s an association of wine produ wine grow or wine Growers as they call themselves but grape Growers and wine makers that have come together to make many many different styles of of wine from the area this
One was lovely and also zero sulfur kind of going back to how people associate natural wine starting very very much hands off mhm uh next we we take a detour to Italy enso catato what’s what’s going on
With this wine this wine is even more orange than it’s the all sauce it’s iridescent yes yeah the fation wine is kind of like a a peachy cloudy this is like spoton orange and I think what’s
Also important to note is when we opened up the bottle there were there was a lot of sediment in the wine oh yeah visible looking through this one uh little little little chunks little little dark dark chunks yeah suspended if you know that you’re you know expecting that in the wine great
That’s fine again adds a little bit of texture if you’re po to the wine and you’re not expecting it be like what is this yeah and and that’s you know education it’s education of the people selling in the retail stores the Distributors everyone needs to be educated in order to properly enjo
Well I know not necessarily properly enjoy the wine but M um manage expectations I think so too right it might be a little much to say that wine sellers should issue a caveat with some of these but frankly they kind of should right yeah and there’s there’s no requirements from labeling
Right right so it’s it’s dealing with what you see in the bottle and with some natural wine producers looking at alternative packaging like bag in a box you can’t actually see the wine so you wouldn’t
Know that it had skin contact or it was unfiltered and having you know sediment at the bottom what do you think of this one well let’s check it out I mean Cado as a great variety produces full-bodied fair you know not overly intense fairly medium intensity aromatics even to you know some people
Even describe it as low used in Marsala production but it is making that gra variety is making some really interesting white wines from Sicily and we see being blended with Grio or or Chardonnay as
Well but this one has a little bit more earthiness on it and we haven’t even talked about branam mes in you kned it early yeah so tell us about Brett BR yes is a wine that again depending on where
How much brettanomyces is in a wine can be seen as adding a little bit of complexity or can be a straight fault once a winery is infected with Brett very very hard to get out but some producers like some cider producers yeah love brettanomyces in their wine and brettanomyces what it’s sweaty
Horse yeah Barnyard bar Barnyard often described for those of you that are old enough to remember the metal boxes for like Band-Aids or adhesive bandages that it gets that rubbery smell but this one has dried Orange Peel like there is a a dried fruit character while this wine is Young it’s not
Described as like Rush there is a a little bit of a dried dried note to it you know like the uh dry garnishes at a bar you get the little it’s kind of like that orange that you get in that you’re not
Supposed to but but even like a smoked you know some cocktail bars are are taking it dehydrating the oranges and then smoking it a little bit sure yeah I’m a little bit more challenged by this one
Than maybe the others yes you know I want to like it but I’m not sure I’m there it’s not as forthcoming in the glass what about the fuess how would you how it doesn’t have much no at all right
Okay yeah and that’s why I I went down that dried Orange Peel note yeah because you don’t get a lot of fruit from this it’s where did it go like in the process you know how how do you end up here
Right well skin contact aging that’s the thing right yep the skin contact UM and this is a 2021 oh sorry 2019 so it has a little bit of bottlee to it right speaking of Aging we talked about
This a little bit you were talking about you know whether to seller her or how to store it but but what about the relative age I mean we’ve got some that are the oldest one is this one right yeah so
You only have a few years right with these I would say one one to three years okay yep as you think about how a wine evolves you know you have the fresh fruit and then the secondary those
Earthy characters and then tertiary so y it’s on your oftentimes well not often times there are some natural wines that start much more earthy and so you don’t have the fruit character in it gets covered up because of the method of production or if say for example branom perfect you are
Certificate author for several online courses related to a lot of what we’re talking about here wines of Italy wines of France and wines of the world tell us a little bit about what’s involved in the creation of those courses what your desired outcomes and objectives are for the
Learners and people who are with us today really to go on a wine Journey that lasts a lifetime you know something about wine is that every year is different every vintage is different so there and there’s so much to learn about and it can really bring people together whether it’s learning the
Material to do business deals learning the material because it’s just something that you are truly passionate about I think it’s it’s so much fun and you get you know we talk culture we talk food and wine pairing and then of course and and how the classes are structured too with the
Second course being hosting an event of some sort where again it’s bringing people together to enjoy and I think that’s so important in life perfect I’ve always admired your uh instruction style it’s great I just love spending time with you is also the case okay let’s get back to France we’re
Going to deal with a boal now this is a what is considered a crew boet it’s called fluri what do we know about flurry flurry is one of the 10 crew boes okay and Chris you and I love boet G grapes
Game grape and so many people write off Bo because they think of Bo Novo and while hey I’m always I’m all about celebrating Bo and the first harvest of the northern hemisphere every year once it comes out it’s always at my Thanksgiving table CU it tastes like liquid cranberry juice crew boet have
Aging potential they are complex wines and not all crew boet are natural and this is where the producers are so important to understand which wines are more traditional and which wines are under this natural wine movement the reason why is is partly because of method of production we
Talk Carbonic mation Carbonic mation is how B Novo is made that’s the fermentation is so fast that’s how it can get released in November when it’s harvested in September but with the natural it’s its hands off its whole cluster including the stems including the seeds the Skins literally
Just putting in a tank putting some carbon dioxide in there having the bottom grapes you know break release their juice start to ferment and then you have intercellular fermentation going on as well
And and they can be some producers like a little bit of and I’m just going to say it funk to their wines and that’s great in various amounts you know and then some are much cleaner some producers are
Much cleaner again all based off of the stylistic preference let’s check out this FL sure color-wise this wine no sulfur in this wine good to know or I should excuse me minimal Su sulfur sulfur
But half of it’s done in Carbonic mation to keep it really fruity and this goes to that glue glue style we see this even being done in Spain where some producers are making tempero or garnacha with
Carbonic mation to keep the alcohol levels low to make it really juicy and fruity and and easy drinking and then they’ll have the Oak Aged uh as well as an extension in their portfolio so this
One runs at retails in New York at $24.99 I think mhm uh you can spend a lot of money on a crew balet yeah no I mean it it depends we can hit $60 something yes but I think 25 is a very fair price
Yeah okay we’re still getting the cranberry but it’s not as juicy cranberry it’s more of a a dark cherry no influence of of Oak but getting some of that whole cluster influence I’m not feeling the
Funk in this one no no no it is clean but again this is still considered a natural wine because of the minimal amounts of sulfur that’s being used delicious tannins right on nice and dry that’s a pretty wine but still with beautiful acidity yep where the tannning gives it a little bit
Of texture and you’re still looking for the the components of the wine to be there and I think that’s important with all natural wines you still want acid you still want tannin or texture of some
Sort to bring in the whole picture make it a very balanced wine so that does it for our tasting this has been fun it has been I’ve learned a good deal any any parting words for those who are getting
Ready to explore the world of natural wine don’t be afraid to ask and do research this is where I have had conversations with people in the wine world that say natural wines are better than all of the other wines I tend to disagree I think natural wines is a stylistic preference of the
Wine maker and just like some wine makers use 100% new Oak and some wine makers only use 50% new Oak you as a consumer being able and knowledgeable enough and comfortable and confident enough to ask those types of questions to the retailer to your somier to find the best wine that’s right
For you at the at the right occasion again no mainstream appeal here probably will never be the case you have to be an active participant effectively to to to enjoy these and make the right decisions around them right and these these all are wonderful I mean especially the petn Nats
Good good ones to to kind of start experience the category 680 sellers here in in the fingerlakes they also have a lot of really interesting petn Nats of different grape varieties that you might not necessarily know you know the orange wines just going into them knowing okay this wine is
Going to be different this is not going to be a Pino gree and just approaching the wine with an open mind and then exploring Reds very different types of Reds a lot with the Carbonic mation or
And if you get wine that has a little bit of bread if you like it great if you don’t okay just know that you don’t like that style but something to note in terms of service is going from a wine
That’s very bready bretty not bready but bretty and then going to a wine that does not have Brad it could influence your perception of the next wine so you need to have some sort of cleanse in
Between and reusing a glass from a bready wine to a non- bready wine it will contaminate the glass good to know good advice hey we’re doing this again next week we have a podcast next week we’re doing Appalachians designations and geographical indications and new wine laws it is going to be so
Much fun to talk about what’s going on in the wine world because things are changing that’s right all right thanks for joining us everyone this has been a lovely tasting Cheryl Stanley as always
A pleasure to have you in thank you Chris see you next time if you enjoyed this episode be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss new episodes as they are released wherever you listen to podcasts to learn more about wines from all over the world check out the episode notes for more information
On Cheryl Stanley’s stack of online certificate programs on wine thank you for listening