Boris Johnson’s frequent mistakes during pandemic ‘derailed’ covid response | Stories of Our Times

Over the past two days, Boris Johnson faced a grilling at the Covid Inquiry. His appearance came after weeks of testimony from senior officials, politicians and scientific advisers who hadn’t held back in their assessment of his handling of the pandemic. So what did we learn about the crucial decisions made by the then Prime Minister?

Guest: George Arbuthnott, Deputy Insight Editor, The Sunday Times.

Host: Manveen Rana.

Clips: UK Covid-19 Inquiry.

Insight’s original investigation:

Insight investigation: why was the UK so slow to lockdown?
Failures of State: How Britain made the same mistake twice (Pt 2)
Failures of State: The inside story of Britain’s battle with coronavirus (Pt 1)

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For the past two days Boris Johnson has faced a grilling at the co inquiry his appearance came after weeks of testimony from senior officials politicians and scientific advisers who hadn’t held back in their assessment of his abilities it was the wrong crisis for this prime minister skill set he did

Struggle with some of the concepts and we did need to repeat them often many of the key decisions were being made by Mr Cummings and not the Prime Minister pretty much everyone called him the trolley yeah change direction as he prepared to face 12 hours of interrogation the former prime

Minister began with an apology can I just say how glad I am to be at this uh inquiry and uh how sorry I am for the the pain and the loss and the suffering sit down of please stop Co victims please sit down but it was dramatically interrupted by the protests of bereaved

Families please sit down or I’m afraid you’ll have to leave the hearing room emotions continued to run high as Boris Johnson left the inquiry the crowd outside booed and called him a Murderer we’ve finally heard from the man who presided over our response to the pandemic I take personal responsibility for all the decisions that we made so how were those crucial decisions made and why didn’t the UK lock down earlier we’ll run through the highlights from the last two days with one of the

Investigative journalists who first reported on the dis function in number 10 during the pandemic you’re listening to stories of our times from the times and the Sunday Times I’m manven Rano today the co inquiry Boris on trial so I’m George abuot I’m the deputy editor of the Sunday Times Insight team

And um we covered the pandemic in in in great detail and and in particular the government’s response to it uh throughout 2020 and uh and Beyond and George you and Jonathan calvit at the Insight team you’ve actually written the book on this really uh on one that I

Think has guided some of the co inquiry yeah we wrote a book called failures of State U which was published in March 20121 and I know that our Publishers did send the K key inquiry members a copy when it was set up and recently the

Inquiry did write to us and ask if they could take the book formally into evidence uh that was in the last few weeks wow so hopefully it has to some extent informed informed their some of their questions so this is a subject that you know well you you’ve looked at

What was happening behind the scenes throughout the pandemic and this period That’s being covered having studied all of that so closely for so long now what did you make of Boris Johnson son’s performance over the last couple of days well it was it was great to see him

Finally having to um sit down and you know in a fairly forensic way have to answer questions about his actions during that that pandemic year because so often in those press conferences we saw you know journalists would ask peace M questions and he would bat them aside

And it was looking on it was very frustrating um that he would never properly be kind of confronted with the realities of and the impact of his decisions and you know the fact that they may well have cost many many lives we’re told he’d spent a year preparing

For this I mean did you was there any change in his demeanor was this a different Boris Johnson no he tried I mean he tried I certainly um Boris kind of gave a pre-prepared speech saying how sorry he was to the uh the victims of the pandemic I do hope that this inquiry

Will help to get the answers to the very difficult questions that uh those victims and those families are are rightly are asking so that we can protect ourselves better help each other to help protect ourselves better in the future and prevent further suffering and if it’s not too but literally at the

Next question when the council was trying to set out um how Britain had actually done very poorly compared to other countries immediately Boris was interrupting him the evidence before Mady is that the United Kingdom had one of the highest rates of excess death in Europe almost all other Western European

Countries had a lower level of excess death I’ve seen Italy was tragically um in a worse position than the United Kingdom well I don’t I don’t wish to to contradict you Mr Keith but the the evidence the on data I saw put us I think about 16th or or 19th in a table

Of 33 in Western Europe we were one of the worst of if not the second worst of you could actually hear gasps from the gallery where some of the bed victims were sitting as he kind of just dismissed the facts that were being put

Forward to him by by the uh the QC if you look at the end of the the first year of the pandemic by kind of around January 2021 what was clear was that Britain had the worst death toll in Europe by quite some distance and we’d also suffered the worst economic Fallout

Of any country in in the G7 countries so we we’ really had ended up in in in the worst of Both Worlds our subsequent vaccine program did mean that we you know rose up a little bit later on but the damage had been done uh in in that first year

And George those lockdown decisions you know going back to those very early days was there a sense that Boris Johnson and his government and the scientific advisers did they understand the severity of the virus so certainly in that um through February and March the scientists did underestimate the speed

Of the virus but they were making increasingly clear that the death rate of the virus and also the it infectious would mean that it was it was likely to overwhelm the NHS and so this was an extremely serious matter but what we could see was that Boris Johnson was was dismissing it all

The way through February and March he missed the first five Cobra meetings on the virus he gave away thousands of pieces of our PPE to China he’s alleged to have suggested that he go on live TV and get Chris witty to inject him with the vir us to show everyone that it

Wasn’t it wasn’t dangerous and at the time I mean you first reported that Boris Johnson had missed all of those Cobra meetings the government was trying to dismiss your reporting at the time why do we think he didn’t take it so seriously did he give an

Explanation yes he did so today he was talking about how you know he’d seen swine flu and um he’s seen other kind of virus scares and they hadn’t amounted to pandemics I think that when you read that a an Asiatic pandemic is is about to to sweep the world uh you

You’re you you think you’ve heard it before and that was the that was the problem and so I say we need to we need to talk about it but I think it would be fair to say that the the the scientific Community Within whiteall at that stage

Uh was not telling us that I was not being informed that this was something that was going to um require urgent and immediate action and therefore he felt that the biggest risk was overreacting and um you know bringing in measures before they were necessary and therefore harming the economy but

Unfortunately he continued that kind of optimistic approach right deep into March even though you know you could see people dying in their in their thousands in in Northern Italy obviously in Wuhan had already had to lock down people were dying in their own beds in in Italy as

As we recall you know he was advised by a scientist on the 14th of March that we we needed to lock down and he did acknowledge that but at that point there were 200,000 infections across Britain but he delayed for a further nine days and because the virus was doubling every

Every three days the infections reached 1.5 million by the 23rd of March when he did finally lock down and that was the reason that we ended up with such an appalling death toll in that first wave but also meant that we had to lock down for longer than

Any other European country which also wrecked our economy and so that was the single most important reason we ended up in in that worst of all World situation in in that first wave and it is important to remember that looking at Italy we had a 3-we warning system system effectively because they were

Already ahead on the curve with with Co infections when lockdown did finally happen on the 23rd quite quickly afterwards Boris Johnson himself gets covid and ends up in hospital he reflected on that during his evidence in a way that we hadn’t heard before what did you make of

It yeah I mean he was actually quite emotional he kind of had long pauses and he could tell that he was really thinking back to that time where he clearly felt he he he you know could have died and he was looking across at um other middle-aged men you know well

Before their time mid-50s I think is is his is and realized that this was not just a virus that you know killed people who were just about to die this was a virus that could take your life you know far earlier than that I knew from that experience what an appalling disease

This is I had absolutely no personal doubt about that from March onwards uh to say that I didn’t care about the the suffering that was being inflicted on the country is simply uh not right when he came out of a hospital and he returned to Downing Street he

Actually stood on the steps of Downing Street at the end of April and said look I I have learned my lesson we now need to make sure that the r number which is the the rate of reproduction of the virus if it’s above one it means that

The virus is is growing across the country if it’s below one it means it’s shrinking and he said I must will now make sure that the r number always stays below one and it seemed like he’d you know that that was a real damine conversion for him but unfortunately as

As as we later hear it he seems to have forgotten that very quickly Midway through April Boris Johnson is clearly personally moved by having spent time in hospital having seen the damage that Co is doing how it’s affecting people and yet by the mid to the end of

June we start to see that there’s clearly been a change of tone after his damine conversion as you called it according to the Diaries of Patrick Valance the chief scientific adviser which have come to light during the co inquiry we start to see a very different approach from the Prime Minister the

Prime Minister meeting begins to argue for letting it rip saying yes there will be more casualties but so be it they’ve had a good Innings obsessed with the average age of death being 82 which is longer you believe in the average life expectancy get covid live longer you

Said what what did you make of that it’s it’s quite um extraordinary uh for a man who had claimed to have realized the severity of the thing with his through his own near death it just betrays an extraordinary kind of you must have extraord memory fade was your position Mr

Johnson that in light of your views secretly held about people dying having reached their time anyway that you were obliged to reject the advice of your advisers that there’d be a circuit breaker no that there be no National lockdown until the last possible moment no and that you would

Try a tear system no no uh no so the implication of uh or the implication that you’re you’re trying to draw from those conversations is uh completely wrong and my position was was that we had to save human life at all ages and uh that was the objective of the of the

Strategy and and by the way um that is what we Did in August we then see um the the chancellor Rishi sunak in the same year launching the eat out to helpout scheme what did we learn about that policy and how much Boris Johnson knew about the risks it might have in terms of the spread of covid at the time well this

This was a real Let It Rip star policy wasn’t it it was encouraging people to go and mix in close quarters inside which was the per the the virus’s kind of dream scenario for spreading and the scientists were absolutely astonished to see what was going on it was interesting

Wasn’t it because in his written statement to the inquiry which had to be lodged before before he heard the evidence from Patrick Valance and Chris witty Boris Johnson had made it quite clear that the scientists had been consulted and had approved this policy and in your statement you do say in

Terms the scheme was quote to use your words properly discussed including with Chris and Patrick I I did I did say that and that that was my belief and I I don’t understand how that I don’t understand how something as um well publicized as that could have been smuggled past the

Um the scientific advice I don’t I don’t see how that could have happened and yet Boris Johnson referred to it saying how surprised he’d been hearing Chris witty say eat out to help the spread of the virus I remember the scheme coming up several times um and that’s why I as I

As I’ve told you I was surprised when later I heard that um Chris was calling it eat out to help eat out to help the virus and and and taken a back what do we know about what actually happened we were speaking to the scientists in in

The summer of 2020 including some of the sage scientists and they were absolutely clear they had not been consulted on it um and if they had they they would have opposed it vly he’d been asking what the scientific modeling was and all all all the other decisions but on this

Particular one in which the scientists have made explicitly clear they would have opposed it vehemently he he did not the covid wave as we know looking back now you know it continued and after months of at the time localized and National measures so in some areas where

It was kicking off again there were sort of stricter measures um in others it might just have been restricting the number of people Gathering but around that time what do we know about the sort of scientific advice that Boris Johnson was receiving just at the end of summer

In the run up to Autumn the scientists could see that the the virus was escalating again and fueled by eat out to help out and they were clear that we’ made it a terrible mistake in the first wave of allowing the virus to spread too far and acting too late and they could

See that in the first wave only 50,000 people had died but only 8% of the population had actually been infected and so any any concept that you could let the virus rip and acquire her immunity through infection it had been completely destroyed and so the only way

To stop the NHS being overwhelmed was to was with a lockdown or to reverse to reverse the virus and so the scientists went to Boris Johnson and said we’ve got to we’ve got to bring in another circuit breaker lockdown now and it will only need to be a short much shorter lockdown

Because the virus is much less out of control than it was in the first wave but but Boris decided that actually um that he would ignore them um this is also back you know the S this also being backed up by by Dominick Cummings as well his closest adviser and it really

Did had tragic consequences in the Autumn and you reported at the time about a particular meeting with scientists that took place in number 10 and we heard a bit more about that during the the inquiry just tell us about that because all the way through this period you know people will

Remember those press conferences every night and we were being being told that the government was following the science was there a question about whose version of the science Boris and rishy decided to get in some other scientists who weren’t part of the sage committee um who were advocating a more her immunity

Style approach so he bought in Anders tnal who was a Sweden’s epidemiologist and also Carl henan um who was an Oxford University professor and S TR Gupta uh who was also from Oxford University and Boris it was quite interesting the quir Boris said he was expecting them to make the arguments

Against lockdown I need to have the arguments I need to understand what a lot of people talk about the great Swedish success and uh you know how they managed to do it without lockdowns and if I’m going to impose another lockdown in the course of the next few weeks

Which is indeed what I had to I ended up having to do I need to know what the counterarguments are but Boris says he was surprised that actually despite the reputations they had actually almost concurred with the sage scientist actually a more precautionary approach needed to be taken uh he then sort of

Midway through his test suddenly realized that that meant that that might mean that there was no scientific backing for the lay Fair approach he took and do made it absolutely plain to you that contrary to much of the press reporting about the Swedish approach a stronger intervention was merited

If the approach to be adopted by your government was there’s a second wave coming we need to do more to stop it um that was the approach he took in the meeting was I couldn’t I couldn’t swear to to that U Mr Keith what I what I what

I what I remember is that he that everybody and I you know everybody at the meeting uh was I mean the meet it was more it was more abstract I think than uh concerned with the details of the current UK position about which actually I don’t think they

Necessarily uh some of them knew as and so then tried to kind of backtrack and then just tried to describe the conversation as as abstract and therefore trying to take away significance from it at which point heo Keef interceded to say it was it was wasn’t abstract at all I don’t think is

That right you you received onepage papers from every single attendee about the inviting them and they produced information about the approach that the United Kingdom government should adopt well you recall I don’t I don’t remember them commenting specifically on the situation that we were in what I do remember is there was

A a a much greater uniformity of view that we needed to do something what I’m trying to say to you and George that meeting with even the scientists who were sort of on the furthest bit of the spectrum when it comes to thinking lockdown might not be important that meeting takes

Place on the 20th of September and yet we don’t get a lockdown until November when even the scientists who were against lockdown or should have been in theory were telling Boris Johnson it was time to do something do we know why that is what you can see through that period

Is that the scientists taking more and more data and producing more and more reports uh and putting it front of the Prime Minister and and arguing making this simple point that if the more you delay action the more you let the virus escalate the more people will die and

The longer the ultimate lockdown will have to be because if you don’t lockdown ultimately the NHS will be overwhelmed and you’ll have people once again like in the first wave dying in their own beds not being able to get uh ventilation treatment if they get ill

You know in that first wave only one in nine of the people who died ever got into intensive care the rest of them died without without the treatment they needed so in the first wave we criticized him for delaying nine days in the second wave he actually delayed for

Pretty much six weeks and in that first wave he took action when there was around 7,000 covid patients in the hospital by the second wave when he finally locked down there was already 14,000 people in the hospital so his his um prevarication was actually getting worse and he wasn’t he wasn’t just not

Learning from his mistakes he was actually making bigger mistakes that’s what’s so surprising about this this part of the inquiry you know on the first day his evidence I think a lot of people would have said well give him the benefit of the doubt it was a an a

Surprising shock that came out of nowhere nobody would know how to deal with the global pandemic but by this stage by by that second lockdown which has delayed by 6 weeks we’ve had the experience of the first already did Boris Johnson give any suggestion that when he looks back now

At the timings of those lockdowns you know how does he view them does he understand the consequences of the delay well he was finally he’s never really faced up to this that by failing to take action people die as a result but Hugo Kee did finally get him to concede that point

And because he found a reference to Boris Johnson actually saying in September that they needed to avoid making the same mistake in March and because if they didn’t there would be consequences um and you see he was asked directly what consequences are we talking about what were the consequences

Of making decisions too late when you said those words to your colleagues on the covid S meeting on the 21st September what did you have in mind by consequences and the decision making having been too late clearly if you if you uh make any decision too late then

There’s going to be a cost and there and in the in the case of Co there’s a cost in human life but I what I I I wouldn’t accept is that the decision in uh SE all the decisions in September October November were too late nor would nor would I accept

Knowing what we did then that the decision in March was too late well there we are and Boris was finally forced to concede that there was a cost in in human life and that is the the nub of the entire inquiry is that if you if you’re told that people will die unless

You act and you don’t act then you are effectively responsible for their deaths is what is is is is how the breed families would put it for the bried families this session had been a long time coming we know that Boris Johnson had spent a year preparing for it when it

Actually arrived it sort of had a very mixed political backdrop and we’re going to hear from RI sunak on on Monday are there are there massive traps for the Prime Minister coming up richy sunak there are huge bear traps for him because there been there’s been evidence

That at times in that in the Autumn Boris Johnson would be persuaded by the scientists to to take action but then he he’d have a meeting of Richi sinak who would who would talk him around and obviously you know the government’s most senior scientists have described richy

Sunak as do to death and obviously the E out to helpout scheme was was his own brainchild um so it’s going to be it’s going to be a grilling from and um you know it’s it’s going to be fascinating how he how how he responds to it but

What the inquir is about though is actually it’s much more serious thing which is how is Britain going to prepare for the next pandemic you know that as as Michael go said and certainly we found is that there is strong evidence that the virus came from a laboratory in

China born from from Risky research on on Corona viruses which U because of the failure of the world to properly get to the bottom of that is is continuing and not just in China but in other countries around the world and so we certainly believe that the chances of another

Pandemic from that source is is is very high and so there was a moment to lose that we make sure that there are plans in place to make sure that whoever is in charge they are compelled to act in a much more effective and decisive way to save lives

And save the economy because in this scenario that was a it wasn’t an either all acting quickly helped both and the failure to understand that is why Britain ended up in such a terrible situation this time Around you’ve been listening to stories of our times a podcast brought to you thanks to the subscribers of the times and the Sunday Times with me manin rner and my guest Deputy Insight editor at the Sunday Times Georg AB bunot you can find all of our coverage of the inquiry

Including rishy sunak evidence next week at the times.co.uk with a subscription or in print we’ll also put a link in the description of this episode to the series we did with George way back in 2021 when the Insight team investigated the government’s handling of lockdowns and if you want to read that

Investigation in full then do pick up a copy of their book failures of State the inside story of Britain’s battle with Corona virus the producer today was Sam chanasak with production help from Taran seagull the executive producer was Kate Ford and sound design was by Hannah Farrell thanks for listening have a lovely Weekend